From: judymuska@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fw: Your New Goats

 
Care or your new goats.

THE FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT THING I can tell you for  your goats is to have proper protection from predators.   They are  completely helpless in a predator situation.  Coyotes are everywhere, but  domestic dogs are every bit as bad, in fact WORSE, because they are  domesticated, and have no fear of humans or 
coming close up to your  place........I feel a guardian Dog is the best protection you can get.  Make sure you get your dog from people that raise them with their goats.   Get names of people they have sold their guard dog to.  and then call  them.....find out how that dog has done.  A good guard dog is worth his weight in gold.  Get a Large Guard Dog from reliable  people.  The goats will need shade and fresh hay  daily.  They will need some kind of shelter,  facing away from the North to protect from the wind and  rain.

ONLY buy MEDICATED goat feed.  This medicated feed will  have a coccicidious ( an internal parasite ) preventative, and also a  preventative for Urinary Calculi. Ammonium Chloride is what the medicated feed  will have to prevent this.  Overfeeding, and dirty water will cause  Urinary Calculi.  It occurs mostly in young bucklings, but it  can happen to older, ( any age ) bucks.  If not treated their bladder  will burst, and its a horrible death.  Watch your bucks.  Make sure  when they urinate its a steady stream.  If the urine only dribbles   and they look like they are straining to urinate, immediately get them to the vet.  They need a salt block and a Mineral  block
 
They need to be wormed and given CD/T vaccinations on a  regular basis
 
WORMING SCHEDULE ;
.First worming at 3 weeks old.....continue worming every 3  weeks till they are weaned.   Then you need to have some  fecals run to determine how often your goats need to be  wormed
 
.   Clear Wormers  :
Ivomec injectable to be given orally.............1cc per 30  lbs.
Cydectin to be given orally.........................1cc per  20 lbs.
 
These clear wormers will get all worms except the tapeworm.  Ivomec and Cydectin are VERY SAFE  wormers.  Always go OVER when estimating weight.  If you give one  bit too little, not only will it NOT touch the worms, but will build a  resistance to the wormer
 
.For the tape worms use a  white wormer, such as Panacure, Safeguard, Valbazen (NOT on a  pregnant goat )  You triple the cattle  dosage and do for three straight days.  I usually  use a white wormer one or 2 times a  year.
 
VACCINATIONS :
 
 CD/TVaccinations
They must be vaccinated with CD/T ....that is :
  Clostridium Perfringens Types C & D with  Tetanus Toxoid.  It can be ordered from all supply houses.  This vaccination covers many things.....mainly over-eating, which can  cause bloat and enterotoxemia and they will die if not treated immediately.  The vaccination helps to  prevent......but it will still happen if goats are  overfed.
Goats of all ages are always given 2 ccs and a booster 3  weeks later...........then every year.  If your goat is pregnant, worm and vaccinate her 3 weeks before kidding.  That way, her babies will  be protected through her 
colostrum till they are 12 weeks old.  Then the babies are vaccinated at 12 weeks old,  and a booster 3 weeks later.  If you have a bottle baby you need to vaccinate at 3,6,12, and 16 weeks, then once a  year they get the booster.  ( always 2 ccs ) I think it is a smart idea to booster with the CD/T every 6 months.  (not wait a year. )

 It is VERY IMPT. you vaccinate the pg doe 3 weeks  before kidding with the CD/T..........this way her babies will be protected  till 12 weeks of age through the Mothers colostrum, and then when the babies  are 12 weeks if left on the Mother, they should be given their first CD/T  vaccination, followed in three weeks by the  booster.
 
ALSO VERY IMPT.  ON BOTTLE BABIES.......worm every 3  weeks, and do the CD/T vaccinations, at 4, 8, 12 and 16  weeks...........also you must treat 5 straight days with Albon ( 1cc per  10 lbs ) double dose the first day.  This must be done at 3 weeks, and  again at 6 weeks.  You can put the liquid Albon and wormer straight  in their bottles.....Babies are VERY prone to coccicidiosis (an internal  parasite ) and worms.

 
CL  Vaccinations:
Case Bac CL vaccination ..............to be given ONLY as a  preventative to be given EVERY 6 MONTHS.
Autogenous CL vaccine.  Given once a yr.  This vaccine can be given to a positive goat, and it will  suppress any future abscesses.  This vaccine can also be given to a negative goat as a preventative.  The Autogenous vaccine is given once a year.

Both CL vaccines need a booster three weeks after the original (always 2 ccs ).  Safe to give a PG doe.  If given 3 weeks before kidding, babies  will be protected till 12 weeks old through their Mothers colostrum.  Then  they are old enough to get their first CL vaccination followed in three  weeks by the booster.
 
PNEUMONIA VACCINE
 
Once a goat has pneumonia, chances are they will get it again, and it  will be a more severe case than the first.
 Poly Bac B  vaccination...........can be ordered from Supply houses.
The bottle says 2 ccs...........that’s for cattle.  For goats, only need to give 1 cc.......followed in three weeks by a booster , again of  1 cc.
If given to the PG doe three weeks before kidding, babies will be protected for 12 weeks through their Mothers Colostrum...........then at 12  weeks, babies can be given their first vaccination, followed in three weeks  by the 
booster.

CARE OF A PREGNANT  GOAT:
The gestation period is 153 days.....(give or take 5 days  either way)
 
I would not breed a Boer doe till she is at least 8 months old and close to 100 lbs.  If she breeds at 8 months, she will kid when she is 13 months old.  You must worm and  vaccinate 3 weeks before she kids.  That way her babies will be protected  till 12 weeks old on the vaccination, but you still must worm the babies  starting at 3 weeks.

The worse thing you can do to a pg doe is to  OVERfeed.,  It will cause many, many birthing  problems.

After the doe kids you MUST worm her.  You did it 3 weeks before she kidded, but you must do it again.  Kidding causes  stress, and stress brings out the worms.
 
Make sure the afterbirth comes after the last kid is born.  The afterbirth MUST come out, or she will become toxic and  die.  Have your vet sell you a bottle of Oxytocin.....given at the rate  of 1cc per 100 lbs.  If she has not 
lost that afterbirth in an hour, I would give her the Oxytocin injection (SQ).....You can safely give it every  hour for about 5 hours after she kids.  If she still has not dropped the  afterbirth, call your vet, or me.

If triplets, or a difficult birth, I always give 10 ccs  Penicillin to the Mother for 5 straight days and ALWAYS a probiotic.  I like Calf Pac for a probiotic, but if you  have none....;go to the grocery store and buy UNflavored 
Yogurt.  It MUST be CULTURED.  This is a very good probiotic.  It will put the good bacteria back in the stomach.

After the doe kids, she will be very, very thirsty and  hungry..  Hang the water bucket high enough so a baby can't fall in or  jump in.  Many a baby has drowned because of low water  buckets.

CARE OF A NEWBORN:
 
As soon as they are born, dip their navel cord in 7% Iodine.  Open the teats on the Mother.  Many  times they are clogged, and as hard as the baby tries to nurse, no milk will  come.....therefore always make sure a steady good stream is coming from her  teats.  Make SURE the babies are up and nursing  within 30 or 40 minutes after being born.  They must have10 to 15% of  their body weight in colostrum (first Mothers milk) in the first 24 hours of  life.....better to get that in the first 12 hours of life.........If they do not get this "life saving " colostrum their chances of survival are  slim..........and even if they don't die, they will not have a good immune  system, and will not be a healthy animal as a  rule.
 
The doe will need to be fed MORE while her babies are nursing.  ALWAYS leave babies on Mothers till 3 months old .  If you  pull them before then, you will not have the good weight and growth you should  have.
 
Make sure you separate the bucklings at 3 months.  They are capable of breeding at three months, and you sure don't want that  buckling breeding his Moma or  siblings.
 
If I keep a doe baby, I never take her from her Mother.  Mom will kick her off when she’s ready.  Longer than three months nursing, can only do her good.  If you take them away too soon not only will it stress the babies, but also the Mother.  Anytime goats are  stressed, it opens them up to all sorts of  "sickness"...............
 
ESSENTIALS YOU MUST HAVE ON HAND ( if breeding and  raising )
Baby Bottle and  nipple
REPLACER  COLOSTRUM..
 
  You will never know how often you might need the replacer Colostrum.  Trips or quads, and the Mother may not  have enough milk (colostrum )....or the Mother could die, or become sick, and  when sick they don't eat, and if they don't eat, they don't produce milk...You  must have this colostrum the first 12 hours of that babies life.....You can  order replacer Colostrum from most supply houses. It is called  COLOSTRX   ......It is made for baby calves, but it works on  goats.  I have lost count of how many babies I have raised with ONLY  the COLOSTRX.....I still have some does I raised around 7 to 9 years ago on nothing but the COLOSTRX.  Don't let anyone tell you it won't work..........IT WILL.  It is very inexpensive, and can be ordered  from most supply 
houses.  Some vets even stock it.  Also the  COLOSTRX has an e-coli preventative in it.
 
REPLACER MILK
 
  There are many brands of powdered milk replacer (made for calves) that you can get at most feed stores.  I will NOT use them.  It is too easy for a baby to bloat on them.  Of course, the best thing you can use is real milk from one of your does in milk.  Many,  many , many of us use a Milk Recipe that Sue Ann Nissen told us about years ago.   Yes, its a little pricey, but you never are going to have a  baby bloat, have enterotoxemia, or have diarrhea....They grow beautifully  on this recipe. As good or even better than if they were on their  Mothers.  And the best thing is ......its all at your nearest grocery.
 
THE RECIPE :
 
1 gallon whole Milk
1 can Evaporated milk  ( not the real little can..the  medium can,..about 12 oz)
1 cup regular  buttermilk
 
Pour about a third of the milk out of the gallon and set  aside.  Pour into the gallon the evaporated milk and the buttermilk.  Then pour to the top of the gallon of milk what you set aside.  Shake and warm.  They LOVE it.

 Epinephrine.....this is very, very important for you to have whenever giving ANY type injection.  It is given at 1 cc per 100 lbs.  Any goat given any injection at any age can form an allergic reaction.  ALWAYS have that injection drawn and in  your pocket when giving shots.  It is a life saver.  They, with a severe reaction, can die within 30 seconds.  I went over 10 years giving  all types of shots to100 plus goats yearly.  Never had any problems whatsoever.  Then about 3 years ago, I had 3 allergic reactions in about 8 months time.  I saved 2 and lost one......This is  prescription  30 ml and only cost 4 dollars.  You must change  it every year.
  
Penicillin   5 ccs young goat, 10 ccs grown doe, 20 ccs LARGE grown buck
 
Polyserum (an immune booster)  5 ccs young goat, 10ccs grown doe........20 ccs LARGE  buck
 
These are not NEAR all the meds you need.  But it will at least  hold you till you can get to a vet.
 
Oxytocin 1 cc per 100  lbs.
 
7% Iodine (to dip navel cord of newborn)
 
ANY TIME, day or night, if you have a problem, do not  hesitate to call me.  (979) 562-2309
 
I guarantee in writing when animals bought from my place,  they are disease free.  NEGATIVE CL .........NEGATIVE  CAE

Judy and  David Muska
Registered Quality Boer Goats
Registered LGDs
(979)  562-2309

Here is Coni Ross' list of medicines:

                       Management of Goats

It is my opinion that 95% of death loss in goats is directly related to lack of knowledge and management skills.

First importance is to be ready for the animals. Adequate fencing is very important. There is nothing like hunting goats that don't know where they live because they are new. I prefer the sheep and goat net wire, that has 12" wide stays, spaced in a graduated fashion from ground to top, with the narrowest at the bottom, and 2" apart to 6" at the top. A goat that hangs her head in this can turn her head sideways, and get out of the fence. Square fencing with 6" squares is dangerous. They will get hung in it and you could find the goat dead, and if she is alive, you will be very tired of having to check fence all the time.

Electric fence is adequate if they are trained to it prior to putting them in pastures fenced with electric. I prefer at least a minimum of two wires, spaced at 8" off of the ground, and 18"-24" above that wire. Goats KNOW when it is off, and will take a stroll if it is off, or shorted out. I prefer to have permanent fences on perimeters, and electric cross fences. Electric wires can be used to augment existing barbwire fences.

Shelter: A three sided shed is fine for pasture situations. If no shelter is available, there should be heavy brush or wind break available. Barns that can be closed to retain heat may be necessary in colder climates. Be sure ventilation is adequate to prevent respiratory problems in the animals and yourself. Ammonia can be a real problem if the weather is cold for a prolonged period.

Water should be available at all times. In extremely cold weather, it is advisable to warm the water with heaters if necessary.  Animals that must drink icy water use the calories they consume to warm up after they drink cold water. This is expensive in terms of amount of feed necessary to maintain the animal's body condition, pregnancy, and lactation. Cold can precipitate pregnancy toxemia if the doe is carrying a multiple pregnancy, and is not drinking enough to aid the kidneys in the excretion of toxins produced by the pregnancy. It compounds the problem when feed consumed is used to produce warmth instead of maintaining the pregnancy, and body functions. Water is integral to all body functions, and must be kept as clean as possible.

Minerals: Calcium Phosphorus ratio should be 2:1 for optimum goat utilization, and prevention of urinary calculi.

Trace minerals are very important, mineral products should have adequate trace minerals added.  In some areas there is not enough Selenium, this trace is added at a minimum to mineral preparations, since Selenium can be toxic in excess. White muscle disease can be prevented by adequate Selenium. Injectable sources: MuSe, and BoSe are the most commonly used.  Usually 1cc IM of MuSe, and 2cc IM of BoSe  are an adult dose. Frequency of dosing, and dosing of newborns is dependent on the area, and deficiency of that area. Ask your local vet for dose recommendations for your area.  Selenium can be added to fertilizer of pastures at 4 grams per acre. It can be added to salt, or mineral supplements. 

To prevent white muscle disease goats can be given 5 mg orally, or parenterally  (injected) 4 weeks prior to kidding. White muscle disease in it's severest form: kids so weak they never nurse, or die in a few days after birth. Kid may be given .5mg orally or parenterally within 2-4 weeks after birth, and then monthly if there is no other supplement for their dams. 

Parasites:  Stomach worms can suck the blood of the goat causing acute anemia, and death when the goat appears to be in good body condition and fat.  The most common of these is Haemonchus contortus  (most common in summer), Osteragia circumcincta, O.trifurcata, Trichostrongylus axei ( more common in winter). An infection of Haemonchus can cause death in a short a time as one week when there is heavy infestation, with relatively few symptoms. The acute infection is characterized by edema usually starting under the jaw, and moving to chest, belly, and legs.  The eyelids will be white or very pale pink. Haemonchus does not cause scours. Treatment of the severe infection, when edema is present is done with care. A white wormer (these are less effective) should be used in a triple dose to kill some of the worms but not all. Anemia can be treated with molasses. Old fashioned blackstrap molasses has as much iron as many of the over the counter treatments, is safe, and has most of the
 constituents to help the goat with energy, and to feel better. Vitamin B12  2cc IM is recommended. Healthy goats produce their own B vitamins, but when they are sick, the rumen bacteria that perform this function are dead. B12, Cyanocobalamine is the center of the molecular structure of the red blood cell. Red cells can not be made in the bone marrow without it.

After 5-7 days, you can worm with Cydectin, which will kill all of the worms. Continue to treat for anemia. Replace rumen bacteria with live probiotics.

Goats not acutely ill can be wormed with a full dose of Cydectin or Ivomec orally. I use Cydectin 1cc/20 lbs orally, Ivomec cattle injectable at a dose of 2cc/100lbs orally.

Trichostrongylus will cause scours, weight loss, poor hair coat, and general loss of condition. They are treated as above. There are more stomach worms than presented here, but these can be treated with the above.

Tape worms: Monesia Expansa, is the most common tape worm of goats and sheep. The intermediate host is the mite that stings your arms when you handle fresh hay. The tape worm is not supposed to be pathogenic; however, I have seen tape worm infection cause severe scours in young kids, poor hair coat, weight loss, and emaciation. I usually use Synanthic to treat tape worms. I use it on pregnant does, and kids at double the cattle dose: 5cc/100 lbs orally. Dead tape worms can be seen in the feces in 24-48 hours. I recommend worming three days in a row to be sure of the worm kill. Valbazen will kill tape worms, but is not safe for pregnant animals.  Valbazen will kill liver flukes also, but again, is not safe for pregnant does. Safeguard is the only wormer currently approved for goats, and unfortunately it no longer is effective unless used at a triple dose three days in a row. Hook worms, Bunostomum Ttrigonocephalum, is significant in warmer climates, and can be controlled with Ivomec
 or Cydectin.

Liver fluke: Fasciola Hepatica- The intermediate hosts are aquatic snails, and slugs. Goats, sheep and cattle consume vegetation near water contaminated by encysted cercariae. Cattle can be asymptomatic, but sheep and goats with severe infection can die in 6 weeks from contamination. Symptoms are abdominal distension, edema, anemia. Flukes enter the liver capsule, and wander in the liver tissue destroying it as they go, causing hepatitis and liver failure. They migrate to the gall bladder and lay eggs.  Valbazen, or Ivomec plus are treatments. 

Management to prevent or limit parasites:

Do a fecal to determine type and severity of worm infection.

Wormer should be administered at a dose that is for the largest goat in the group. Example: does range from 180-210 lbs, I worm them all for the heaviest goat.  Under dosing causes more problems by permitting some worms to live, that then are resistant to the wormer used.  Worm every goat in the group. Dry lot them in an area with dry hay for 24 preferably 48 hours to permit worms and eggs to be dumped into the dry lot, and not pasture. Put the goats into a fresh pasture. This will help to limit contamination of pastures.  Sanitation of barns, pens etc. is significant in the reduction of worm contamination. Quarantine all new goats for 7-10 days. Worm them for both tape worms, and stomach worms; then do a fecal before you turn them out. You do not want to contaminate your premises with resistant worms.

Hoof rot can be an issue in cold and or wet climates. Quarantine goats, trim feet, dip in chlorine bleach, or use Koppertox on the feet. Be sure there are no signs of hoof rot for the 7-10 days they are in quarantine. Vaccinate as needed for chronic conditions.

Lice can be a problem, but are treated by use of Ivomec, Cydectin, or Dectomax. Sucking lice are relatively easy to control. Chewing lice, as in the type angoras get are not easy to control, and dips are the most effective. Some pour-ons such as Cylence work well if goats are not in need of worming. 

Coccidiosis is very significant in the goat population, and is one of the most significant causes of failure to thrive in young goats. Eimeria arloingi, E. christenseni, and E. ninakohlyakimovae are the most pathogenic in kid goats.

I prefer the use of Rumensin (monensin) for prevention. Rumensin is the one Ionophore that will pass through the milk of the dam, and protect that kid from having infection by the Eimeria spp.  Feed can be purchased that contains Rumensin, Sweetlix has a mineral that has Rumensin now, and is very palatable. Rumensin also enhances feed absorption, and feed efficiency at a gut level: Kids grow faster, and goats on pasture remain in better condition with lower quality forage. I have used the Rumensin blocks for cattle for this purpose for 20 years.

Treatment of kids not on a preventative program: Sulfa drugs according to label instructions. There are many different brands of sulfa drugs available. Treatment dose is different depending on the manufacturer. Goat kids can scour and die in hours if not treated. Biosol ( Neomycin 200 mg/ml)can be used orally in a weight appropriate dose, along with Pepto Bismol to stop scouring and dehydration. Spectam Scour halt is also an effective treatment.

Pneumonia: The organisms that cause the most loss in goats are the Pasturella species: Specifically Pasturella hemolytica, P. Multocida, and Haemophilus Somnus. I prefer to vaccinate goats for the prevention of this disease. 

Treatment: Nuflor is the drug I prefer: 6cc/100lbs SQ as a first dose, followed by 3cc/100lbs SQ each day for at least 4 days. Goats are smaller, they have faster metabolisms, they need to be treated every day or they tend to relapse and die. They do not respond as per cattle recommendations on the label. To augment the treatment, I use Polyserum 10cc SQ for an average size doe. The product comes in several names depending on manufacturer. It usually has Actinomyces Pyogenes, P. multocida, P. hemolytica, Samonella, and E Coli in it. It is antibodies to the diseases, as CD antitoxin is antibodies to Enterotoxemia. Banamine can be used at the dose: 1cc/100lbs body weight to alleviate respiratory distress, and as an antiendotoxin to help prevent damage to kidneys and liver by toxins produced by bacteria. It is also anti-prostaglandin, and will help prevent the secretion of prostaglandin, that will precipitate abortion secondary to injury or illness. Prostaglandins are secreted in
 response to pain.  I prefer to vaccinate to prevent these diseases. I use the Super Poly Bac B Somnus, by Texas Vet Labs. This is a cattle vaccine, and the goat dose is 1cc SQ repeat in 2-3 weeks. It is very effective to prevent pneumonia. It protects against P. Hemolytica, Multocida, and P. A6, Haemophilus S. and Samonella.

Enterotoxemia: Bloat is the most common symptom. The kids die very quickly. Grown goats take a little longer, but still die if not treated. Depending on size, I treat a 50 lb kid with 5cc CD antitoxin SQ, 5cc SQ long acting penicillin, 5cc orally of Penicillin, and 15cc orally of Pepto Bismol. Usually the kid will be significantly better in an hour. I repeat the Pepto Bismol later in the day. On day two, I give CD antitoxin 5cc, 5cc SQ penicillin, and a dose of live probiotics. Vaccinate in 5 days after last CD antitoxin.

Does can be vaccinated 2-3 weeks prior to kidding; to have colostrum immunity, that protects kids until they are 12 weeks, and old enough to vaccinate. I use Covexin 8, to vaccinate for the Clostridial diseases.

CL: Caseosa Lymphadenitis: Causative organism: Corynebacterium Pyogenes, sometimes called Pseudo-tuberculosis.

This is a disease endemic around the world. Other species than just sheep and goats can have the infection. 

Symptoms are usually abscesses of the lymph system. Most common are abscesses under the jaw or other lymph areas.  Abscesses can be internal affecting any or all organs of the body, and can be found in the udder, or testicles. These infections are significant in reduction of vigor, and ability to thrive. Goats with internal abscesses frequently have a wasting condition that can mimic other diseases.

Prevention is simply to vaccinate. The ground can be contaminated on the premises where goats are kept, and any broken skin, or quicked hoof can permit entry of bacteria.  Positive goats can be vaccinated with an Autogenous vaccine, and the disease suppressed. These animals are not contagious if they do not have an abscess. Clean animals can be protected from infection through a conscientious vaccination program. If does are vaccinated a month prior to kidding, then there is enough colostrum immunity to protect them until the are 12 weeks and old enough to vaccinate.

Blood tests for detection are not always effective in guaranteeing clean animals. Goats can be exposed on day 5-10 prior to testing, and still test negative, yet they are positive.  Many producers think they are safe buying tested goats, when this is not a guarantee of anything. The only safe option is to vaccinate, booster in three weeks, and then annually for the life of the goat. 

Positive herds can be cleaned up by vaccination, and suppression of the disease. Kids protected through colostrum of the vaccinated does, and subsequent vaccination of keeper kids by 12 weeks. As time passes, the older positive does can be culled, and only clean animals retained. Prevention is still the safest method, as treatment is not always successful.

Culling is a very important issue in management. I cull does that walk away from their kids, or kick one off. A doe with triplets may kick one kid off, and that is not a culling issue if she does not have milk for three kids. Does that need to have kids pulled more than one pregnancy are a liability. Does that have an udder that a newborn kid can't nurse without human intervention, will not raise that kid if you are not there, and often that udder structure is inherited? I keep my doe kids at the headquarters, and they are monitored during the first kidding. If they have a problem, they go to the auction, since I put them on pasture after that, and they will die if they have a problem. 

A goat needs to have a good mouth. I cull any goat that has a bite in which the teeth do not meet the dental pad. No exceptions. They must eat to live.

Goats with bad legs or feet, feet that grow excessively, and or other bony structural abnormalities, go to the auction. Bucks need to have two large well formed testicles of equal size. No excessive split of the scrotum. Bucks that do not have adequate libido are not acceptable either. 

This is how I do it.

 Coni Ross, RN, Rancher, goat raiser for 25 years 
AMGA director, Region Coordinator, AMGA judge.

CR Ranch 
13285 Ranch Road 2325
Blanco, Texas 78606
crranch@texas.net
512-496-3197

Here is a list of Con's in ordering supplies

512-496-3197

Here is a list of Con's in ordering supplies:
Supply sources for Goat products:

CEE Sales Inc.- Bob Cass
800-851-3170 
Source for Calf Pac, and other supplies at competitive prices

Sweetlix Products
Clark Springfield, East Texas Rep.
254-717-2641
Sweetlix main number: Jackie Nix 877-933-8549

Walco ( used to be Hi Pro) 877-289-9252
Animal health products: vaccines, drench guns, automatic syringes, wormer, etc. Very competitive prices.

 American Livestock Supply
800-856-0700

Livestock Concepts
800-738-7012

 Premier
800-282-6631

Nasco
800-558-9595

Jeffers
800-533-3377

Valley Vet
800-356-1005
fax: 800-446 5597

Sydell
800-842-1369
All kinds of feeders, hay racks, working pens, grafting and kidding pens etc. Functional products that work. 

*********************************************************************************

From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: goat that stepped on nail

I would treat aggressively for infection with A 10 cc SQ dose of Penicillin, 10 cc Polyserum, and Probably Nuflor. Tetanus or CD antitoxin would also help. I would repeat the Penicillin every day, and the Nuflor
for 3-5 days. I have seen gangrene develop from a puncture wound of this sort, and the goat had to have one digit amputated.  Look at the site of the puncture, and open it. I would clean it with peroxide and 7% Iodine
mixed 50 50, and make sure the pus is out. I would open it up, to clean it, even if I had to use a scalpel or sharp tissue scissors.  They can die from a puncture wound like that. Coni
 
Coni Ross 
CR Ranch
13285 Ranch Rd. 2325

************************************************************************************

Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 5:51 AM
Subject: [The_Boer_Goat] Tape worms

The label dose for Valbazen is 5.5cc/100lbs, so triple that 16.5/100lbs.
Synanthic is 2.5cc/100lbs & tripled 7.5cc/100lbs. None of the white wormers will kill stomach worms if not triple dosed, and I do it for tape worms, since they are very hard to kill.
Pathogenic: harmful.  Pathogenic bacteria like Pasturella species, Clostridial species.  Non Pathogenic as in the normal flora of the rumen that digests feed. 

Most of the "experts" in the field don't consider the Monesia tape worm to be pathogenic. I will argue that, since in great enough numbers, it can cause starvation, or a state of "non thriftyness". Kid goats can scour.  Years ago, I had a bunch of Angora kids scouring. I wormed them with Ivomec (Ivomec was new, and very effective). They continued to scour.  I did a fecal, and there were those triangular shaped ova. I got some Benzelmine (now Synanthic) a horse wormer from the vet, and wormed them.  The next day there were piles of dead tape worms in the pen, and the kids stopped scouring. The  expert from Texas A&M had told me they had inhibited Osteragia.  After the numbers of dead tape worms on the ground, I knew the tape worms were the problem. I worm all of my goats at least once a year for Tape worms.

The mite that stings your arms when you gather fresh hay is the intermediate host of the Monesia tape worm. It can be on any grass, or fresh hay. Coni

Coni Ross
CR Ranch
13285 Ranch Rd. 2325
Blanco, Texas 78606

************************************************************************************

Judy Watson <jwatson@centex.net>
Subject: Sick Doe

         When you treat for listeriosis or goat polio, how long is it usually before you see signs of improvement?
         I may have my first case ever on my ranch.  An adult doe (4-5 yrs. old) was found yesterday with head down, very lethargic.  I walked up to her and handled her and she completely ignored me which is very unusual as she is as wild as the wind.  Got the truck and brought her and her triplets (5 weeks of age and huge) to the house.  Had to carry her to the pen in a wheelbarrow.  No temp. (102.9 and yesterday was warm).  she stands and leans against the side of the pen and might be blind.  She also has bouts of some pretty severe tremors (full-body).  Not eating or drinking by herself.

         .  She has been in a ryegrass field with access to hay and sweetlix minerals, small amounts of pelleted feed every other day or so.  Otherwise she is in good condition.  Have not seen any other goats with similar symptoms so I doubt (but have not completely ruled out) consumption of a poisonous plant.
         I have been giving her thiamine and penicillin every 6 or so hours and drenching with magic and water.  There appears to be no change in her condition today.  Am trying to reach vet now, but can anyone tell me how 
long it takes a case of polio or listeriosis to respond to treatment?  Or have any other ideas of what might be wrong?         Please respond directly to me as I am on digest.
Thank You,

===========================================
Judy Watson
Rt. 2, Box 287Goldthwaite, Texas  76844
(325) 938-5403
From: Judy Watson <jwatson@centex.net>
Subject: re:  polio/listeriosis update

         Thanks everyone for responding to me.  I finally got through to the vet and he agrees with goat polio.  In addition to continuing with penn. and thiamine I'm giving dex and banamine for 3 days.  Am now drenching with revive with baking soda and corn syrup added.  I think she may be looking very slightly more alert, but it is hard to tell.  I guess the fact that she is still alive is a positive sign.

===========================================
Judy Watson

**********************************************************************************

: "Ray/Jannette Wood" <rwood@wf.net>
Subject: Re: Hi and a question

Randy, Coni Ross also has a formula for pregnancy toxemia that is given in the day time, whereas Magic is given nightly. Revive is for short term and Magic for long term...
Revive for Pregnancy Toxemia:
1 bottle of 50% Dextrose
20cc of B Complex
5cc of B12
3cc of 500mg Thiamine
1 bottle of Amino Acid
3 grams (6cc) of 50mg Ascorbic Acid...
You may also add a bottle of Calcium Gluonate 23% Solution to this.
Give Revive 100cc + 100cc of water mixed (200cc total) 3 to 4X a day. Then at night give 8 oz of Magic. Give Calf Pac with each treatment.
I do wish you success...

***********************************************************************************

: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: Vitamin B1: Thiamin

Thiamin can be given orally for polio. I usually give a 10cc SQ dose of Penicillin, then 10cc orally to kill bacteria in the rumen causing the problem. Polio can be caused by plant thiaminase, or bacterial
thiaminase.  I think in most cases, goats respond when treated both orally and with a shot of Penicillin, then at least 500mg- 1 gram (1000mg) IM of Thiamin initially. Then later that day I give a dose of Calf Pac to reinstate the normal organisms of the rumen. I still give the Thiamin IM the second time that first day.  On day two, the Thiamin may be given orally. I usually mix it with a little water, and some Revive. 

The neurological system works on thiamin, and glucose.  If the goat can't eat, then it is low on glucose. The electrical signal from the brain travels from cell membrane to cell membrane on glucose and thiamin. In polio, the signal does not get from brain to body part. Polio has many presentations:  Paralysis can be any body part, or parts, or just stiffness, stargazing, and or blindness. If the goat is blind it takes much longer to recover. If the goat is found down, and on it's side, with a running struggling motion of the legs, it is not likely to survive. Massive brain cell death occurs in the absence of thiamin, so prompt treatment is key to recovery. Treatment with thiamin supplement must continue until the animal is recovered.  I have best luck using Calf
Pac, Revive, and at least 500mg thiamin/day.  The rumen bacteria (normal flora) manufacture thiamin, so when there is stress, fever, pneumonia, or consumption of toxic plants, this can kill normal bacteria, and onset
of polio is likely.

Coni Ross 
CR Ranch
13285 Ranch Rd. 2325
Blanco, Texas 78606 
512-496-3197

***********************************************************************************

From: "Melinda" <melinda@moorecomputing.net>
Subject: bloated kid- please help!

We have a bottle baby that ate too many leaves from the tree branches we trimmed this weekend and now she is bloated.  We drenched her with 2oz. veg. oil and have been massaging and walking her. Is there anything else we need to do?  Poor thing is miserable. She won't lay down and when she baa's is it strained sounding.

From: "Robin L. Walters" <rob.walters@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: bloated kid- please help!

Give her 10cc penicillin orally & 15-30cc pepto orally.  If you have any C&D Antitoxin, give her that also.  

Banimine (weight appropriate dose 1cc-100lbs) would help some also.      Robin

"Barbara" <jamesa@mrtc.com>
Subject: Re: bloated kid- please help!

Give her 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda in 5cc of water.
Give her 15cc/60# milk of magnesia orally and do warm water enemas on her until you get her to passing feces.
Keep massaging the tummy as well.
I would give her 3cc Of CD anti toxin SQ.
Barbara Howard
jamesa@mrtc.com
www.geocities.com/goatlady43

From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: bloated kid

Most of the time, when a kid bloats, it is Enterotoxemia. 
Do not use vegetable oil ever, it adds to the digestive load. If you must use oil, use mineral oil, it is inert, and will speed peristalsis, so that digestive contents move down the digestive tract.  The Clostridial bacteria that causes Enterotoxemia grows in the gut, and systemically. The bacteria produce acid, that cause gas formation, and toxins that kill the organs.  I have very good success treating them as follows: I give a young kid 15cc Pepto Bismol (antibacterial, anti-gas, and antacid) 5-7cc oral Penicillin (to kill the bacteria topically in the gut), 5-7cc Longacting Penicillin SQ (to attack the bacteria systemically), 7cc CD Antitoxin SQ ( to destroy the toxins produced by the bacteria), and Banamine 1cc IM/100lbs. So a 20 lb kid would get .2cc of Banamine. I use an Insulin or allergy syringe to give Banamine to a kid. I repeat the CD antitoxin in 6 hours, and the Pepto Bismol. On day two, they are usually well, but do need to have a dose of Calf Pac. I give all bottle  babies 2cc CD antitoxin, and 3cc Polyserum SQ every 14 days. They don't get sick. Bottle kids nibble on the ground, and
Clostridial bacteria are in the dirt. Coni

*******************************************************************************

From: MaggieJWL@aol.com
Subject: Re: I have a doe down!

If polio she should not have fever, if listeria, she should have a fever.  You are doing the right things. I'd repeat the thiamine soon. 

**********************************************************************************

: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: kids with that won't eat

I would treat them for floppy kid. I give 2cc longacting penicillin, and 500mg Thiamin orally and they will stand and nurse in 6 hours or so if you catch it quickly. If the kids are moribund, I give them some 50%
dextrose, usually 5cc or so orally to get some sugar to the brain, and they seem to recover faster. You must treat them three days in a row, or they will relapse. Any time a young kid seems wobbly, weak, and can't
nurse, I treat for floppy. The Penicillin is just plain injectable, and it can be given orally to topically kill the bacteria causing the problem. Coni

**********************************************************************************

From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: banding big kids, using a Burdizzo

Tim explained it well. I would like to add that if you pull the sack through the band, and squirt the first testicle through, then the second one, it works quite well. I have banded bucks with very large testicles.  I have held them between my legs with the rear end forward, and pulled the testicles out in front and banded them. Keep the rear legs off of the ground.

TO use a Burdizzo: I usually have someone else restrain the buck for me on his side. Grasp the testicular sack, and pull the cord over to one side of the neck of the sack, up against the edge of the skin on that  side. Hold the cord there, and put the Burdizzo over only the edge of the neck of the testicular sack. Check to be sure the cord is still in place, then close the clamp completely. It only takes a second to crush the cord, and the blood supply. Before you release that side; check again, to be sure that the cord is inside the clamp. Release the clamp, and do the other side the same way. If you don't feel the cord in the crushed part, you have not done the job, and must try again. Stay below the body at least 2-3" if possible, when you are clamping the  area. You only have to clamp above the testicles. Don't clamp the entire sack, or it turns black and dies. You don't want to do that, but only to kill the testicles inside, by stopping blood flow.

************************************************************************************

: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: kids with belly, not growing

First, I would worm them. Be sure to use enough wormer to do the job.
Second, I would calf pac them, and make sure you have a feed with Rumensin. Sometimes kids have sub-clinical coccidiosis, which will interfere with absorption and growth. Coccidiosis will damage the lining
of the gut, and will decrease feed efficiency. If the kids are young, and not getting enough milk, a cup per 50 lbs of feed can be added to the creep feed in the feeder.

Subject: pot bellied kids

If you  are bottling the kids, hold the bottle up high, so that the milk goes down the esophageal groove, That helps absorption. Second, make sure your milk replacer has Milk as the first ingredient. Measure milk powder separate from water. If you are feeding kids creep feed, you can add 1 cup of nonfat dry milk (generic will do) from the grocery store. I also use Calf Pac in the feed, and in the milk. Pot belly means the kids are not getting enough protein. I would put a Rumensin block in with them, unless you have Rumensin in the feed. The Sweetlix Meat Maker Mineral with Rumensin is good too. Coni
 
Coni Ross 
CR Ranch

I would give kids an ounce a day, and adults 6-8 oz depending on weight.
Be sure to calf pac, so that they don't scour from it. Coni

 *************************************************************************************

From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: goat that can't swallow

I would take the goat to the vet. There is likely an abscess in her throat that is becoming larger, and impinging on the esophagus, and the trachea. I have seen this off and on for years in different goats.  I doubt it is cancer. If you don't get it cut out by the vet, she will likely die. It does not have to be CL, it can be any kind of bacteria
causing it. There are lymph nodes in that area, and that is where bacteria stops and replicates.  If she can't swallow well, and is salivating excessively, then that means she will dehydrate, and die. Not being able to swallow one's own saliva doesn't give her much time. Coni
 
Coni Ross

************************************************************************************

Subject: Re: Re: question

Doprem for babies is 2/10ths of a cc under the tongue.  Older goats get 5cc SQ.
Barbara Howard

********************************************************************************

From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: dog bite goat.three legs

I would suspect she still has pus in that leg, or else there is muscle scaring from the bite. Hold her still, and try to extend the leg full length, and then fell of the area. I would bet there is a "ball" in the muscle. If the tendon were severed, the muscle would bunched up just above where it is torn or severed.

When I had those two wolf dogs get into my doe kids a couple of years ago, there were two that took almost 3 mos. to get completely well. One had bites on her back legs that caused similar symptoms as what you are
describing. I finally sedated her, cleaned the skin, took my knife, and cut down to the "ball" that I could feel in there. It was full of stinky pus. I drained it, flushed it with iodine 7% mixed 50:50 with peroxide, and kept it open by  flushing it each day. I sprayed it with scarlet oil to keep it open, and it healed very quickly after that. You might examine her yourself, then ask the vet to do it if you can't. Coni
 
Coni Ross

************************************************************************************

"Ray/Jannette Wood" <rwood@brazosnet.com>
Subject: Re: Twisted Ankle - Dex dosage

John, when one of our does got caught in the fence...she is around 40#...we gave 5cc of Dex., 10cc of Pen. and Calf Pac...this was Judy and Coni's treatment over the phone to us...Now the Dex was for swelling of spine and head...cause she had her head caught...but he probably needs it for the same reason as he twisted for sure trying to get out...Always give Pen with Dex...according to our gals...
J
Ray/Jannette Wood

*************************************************************************************

  From: "Sharon Moore" <morlmahn@wabash.net>
Subject: Re: My Stinking dogs

. 1 quart 3% Hydrogen Peroxide
a.. 1/4 cup Baking Soda
a.. 1 teaspoon liquid soap

Mix in a bucket (it will fizz).
Soak your dog's fur, but be careful not to get any in his eyes.
Use a sponge to clean off his head and around his eyes.
Knead solution into the fur and be sure to get every part of him with it.
Rinse thoroughly.

I'm a pro groomer, and this does work as well as anything.  Hopes this 
helps.

Sharon M
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another note I found on the subject:

Downy Fabric Softener liquid also removes the odor.

************************************************************************************

From: Andy Highland <wwmfarm@fred.net>
Subject: Water feeding via nipples (long)

Hi,

This note is continuing a discussion from GoatER in reference to my warning that large amounts of water should not be given to young ruminants via a bottle or other nipple device due to the danger of causing hemoglobinuria (what appears to be blood in the urine, but in fact is hemoglobin from red blood cells which have burst and colored the urine red).

This is a moot point to those of you who never have cause to bottle feed kids or who never use a lambar. However, it is important information for those who do feed milk via a nipple device and then at weaning time (or when you need to give meds., etc., to young goats) start giving lots of water via a bottle or lambar.
This information is per my experience and what I learned a few years back:

When weaning a Nigie doe kid who had been bottle fed, I decided to follow advice that I'd read about adding warm water to the bottle as the amount of milk was gradually lessened. The hypothesis was that this would both help ease the transition off of milk and aid hydration until the kid was drinking water well from a bucket. It sounded like a good idea.

When the doe was getting 8 oz. of water am & pm, she started to have red or pink urine sporadically . There didn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to the incidents. I took her to her vet  immediately and testing was 
done. Meanwhile, the vet said to get the doe to drink more water to aid in flushing the urinary tract. The more water the kid drank, the more frequent the incidents of red urine (from once or twice a week to daily) 
and the redder the color.

Urinalyses, cultures and blood work showed no infection, no bacteria, no parasites. What showed up as "blood" via one vet's dipstick urinalysis was found to not be blood but hemoglobin when examined via microscope at 
another lab. The kid was not acting sick or off in any way. I sought advice from other sources.

Three, large animal vets and two, small ruminant specialists (non-vet) were involved in the case. Even though I'd raised goats for a dozen years, all management practices, feed, pasture plants, etc., were investigated in addition to a thorough medical workup. No cause was found. 

The mystery was solved by one phone call to Dr. Wendy Freeman, then Goat Specialist for U.Penn's New Bolton Center, Lg. Animal Hospital.  Dr. Freeman stated that she has seen many cases of "osmotic hemolysis" 
(rupture of the red blood cells due to water intake) in young ruminants (esp. sheep) who are fed water via a bottle or other nipple device such as a lambar. Reportedly, the critter confuses the water with milk and drinks too much water for it's system. Ruminant systems are not designed to suck in large amounts of water at one time.

I was told that when a goat drinks water from a bucket or even from a drench, it does not take in the same quantities at a time as it will when sucking on a nipple. Dr. Freeman states that water should never be 
given via a bottle or lambar to a ruminant who has been fed milk the same way.

Within one day of stopping the water via a bottle, my doe stopped passing red urine. Fortunately, the anemia that I had caused her to suffer also cleared up in time and there was no permanent damage.

I hope this helps prevent others from making the same mistake that I made.

Andy

***********************************************************************************

 The_Boer_Goat@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 8:28 PM
 Subject: Re: [The_Boer_Goat] sore footed doe

There is no heat to the area, just that nasty-smelling "cheese" between the toes, up high in the junction between them………..

  I have had very good luck in dissolving some Copper Sulphate crystals (got mine at the feed store in a re-sealable little bucket) in water and soaking the affected foot (feet) in that once or twice.  That has usually cleared it up.  It does burn so be prepared for her to jerk or kick.Wear protective eye gear so it doesn't get splashed in your eyes while treating.  I made the mistake of not doing that one time....never again !!

  Peggy Taylor

************************************************************************************

Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:22:55 -0500
   From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: doe with scours (diarrhea)

You got good advice. Have that stool cultured. When a goat scours and does not respond to Biosol, or other common treatments, Salmonella should be suspected. I would give 10cc SQ of Polyserum, or Bovi Sera. These have the antibodies to E coli, and Salmonella, as well as Pasturella hemolytica and Pasturella Multocida: the most common cause of pneumonia in goats. 

Is the stool liquid, or is it sticky, and lumpy? Did you treat with enough of a dose of a white wormer to be sure it isn't tape worms, or Trichostrongylus?  If the cultures are negative, I would be very wary of Johne's.  Coni

**********************************************************************************

Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:27:26 -0500
   From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: thiamin deficiency/ POLIO in goats

Well the bacteria of the ruminant manufacture thiamin (put very simply).For some reason, occasionally bad bacteria, or plants kill the normal bacteria, causing overgrowth of bad bacteria that produce Thiaminase.
Thiamin is destroyed.
Thiamin and glucose are the mode by which the electrical transmission goes from brain to body part. Without it, the signal does not get there.The animal may present with various symptoms, but usually there is paralysis, or stiffness, stargazing which may be accompanied by blindness. Sometimes the symptoms are virtually the same as Tetanus. To determine if the animal has Tetanus or polio: Tickle the eyelashes. If it is Tetanus, the nictating membrane (third eyelid) will flip over the eye. If not, and there is no fever, this is Polio.

To treat, I give: 10cc oral longacting Penicillin to kill the bacteria in the gut, 10cc Longacting Penicillin SQ (for a grown goat factor for kids), and at least 500mg IM of Thiamin, and 500mg SQ to start.  Thiamin is vitamin B1, and is water soluble, so it doesn't last long.  The IM Thiamin goes to work right away, and the SQ Thiamin will provide a more sustained blood level. I usually give the goat several ounces of Revive, or 50% Dextrose mixed 50:50 with water, to get some sugar to it's brain.

If not treated, massive brain damage occurs, and death is probable. ON day two, I restart the rumen with Calf Pac, and  continue with the same regimen of Thiamin. No more Penicillin is necessary in most cases.
Thiamin must be continued until the goat is fully recovered. 
 
Coni Ross 
CR Ranch
******************************************************************************************

Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 06:18:13 -0500
   From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: mange mites vs mites

That sounds like mange to me. I would Ivomec them each with an oral dose of the injectable, and spray the legs, bellies, and other affected areas with Prolate dip 1oz/gal . I would also scrub any areas that are crusty with a stiff brush, to make sure it is through the skin layers. I treat once a week for at least 3 weeks, and longer until the goat is cleared up. You will probably have to spray the lounging areas, inside sheds, and barns, or put down DE to kill it, or they will be re-infected.  Any warm blooded animal can carry mange that travels across your pens. I had a squirrel several years ago that was naked from his forelegs back with mange, and I caught him eating out of the buck's feed troughs. NO more mites after I shot him. Coni
 
Coni Ross 
CR Ranch
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 06:29:50 -0500
   From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: bumps on goats

This could be mosquito bites, or it could be a fungus. There is a fungus that is systemic, that causes bumps. As the infection progresses, the bumps open up and become infected with bacteria, usually Staph. Coni
 
Coni Ross 
CR Ranch

********************************************************************************
THIS IS A CLASSIC DESCRIPTION OF GOAT POLIO

Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:49:10 -0500
   From: "Aleda Kivett" <aleda@fidmail.com>
Subject: re: thiamine supplement

I don't know that the first doe had a thiamine deficiency, she was down, head turned to her side, neck muscles ridged, trembling in muscles of hind end, no temp ( high or low ), became blind in one eye.  She survived , because of or in spite of my treatment.  Vet thought it might have been Meningitis because of the blindness, but even he said it is pretty rare for a goat to survive meningitis. The second young doe had almost all of the classic symptoms; ridged neck muscles, head turned slightly, beginning to circle right, trembling muscles in hind quarters. facial muscles pulled into ridged grimace, pushing against objects.  She pushed her head through a net fence and was electrocuted by the high tensile...I took her body to the vet and he is going to see if there is a post mortem test for thiamine deficiency...but even he agreed it is a thiamine problem.  Not a good ending.  Thanks for the information on b1 and the rumen...I have another days work to fix fence and I will put them on a native grass pasture, it will be much better than what they are on although even it is dormant and stiff.  Hopefully today's rain will continue and the pastures will revive.  Question becomes what was the stress factor that shut her b1 production down...poor pasture ( none of them would eat the hay I put out not because it was poor hay they would just rather eat what was in the pasture plenty of it just no quality ) heat??

thanks
Aleda
********************************************************************************

From: mel and Doris uphoff <mduphoff@atcjet.net>
Subject: Re: re: thiamine supplement

Below is from Coni Ross's notes.    By her explanation you will notice that the thiamin can be destroyed in the gut.  We had a goat go blind, not other problems, and by using the thiamine she is fine now.
Doris  

Well the bacteria of the ruminant manufacture thiamin (put very simply).  For some reason, occasionally bad bacteria, or plants kill the normal  bacteria, causing overgrowth of bad bacteria that produce Thiaminase.
Thiamin is destroyed.  Thiamin and glucose are the mode by which the electrical transmission goes from brain to body part. Without it, the signal does not get there.

The animal may present with various symptoms, but usually there is paralysis, or stiffness, stargazing which may be accompanied by blindness. Sometimes the symptoms are virtually the same as Tetanus.  To determine if the animal has Tetanus or polio: Tickle the eyelashes.  If it is Tetanus, the nictating membrane (third eyelid) will flip over the eye. If not, and there is no fever, this is Polio.

To treat, I give: 10cc oral longacting Penicillin to kill the bacteria in the gut, 10cc Longacting Penicillin SQ (for a grown goat factor for kids), and at least 500mg IM of Thiamin, and 500mg SQ to start. Thiamin is vitamin B1, and is water soluble, so it doesn't last long. The IM Thiamin goes to work right away, and the SQ Thiamin will provide a more sustained blood level. I usually give the goat several ounces of Revive, or 50% Dextrose mixed 50:50 with water, to get some sugar to it's brain.  If not treated, massive brain damage occurs, and death is probable. ON day two, I restart the rumen with Calf Pac, and  continue with the same regimen of Thiamin. No more Penicillin is necessary in most cases.  Thiamin must be continued until the goat is fully recovered.

************************************************************************************

Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:10:16 -0400
   From: "c" <carriet@verizon.net>
Subject: Blister Beetle Support

Here are a few suggestions to help an animal have a chance of survival, but this is when it is caught at the onset:
(Carrie)

Blister beetle poison (cantharidin) effects horses worse than it effects other animals.  They don't seem to be as good at fighting the poison. 
There isn't a specific antidote for cantharidin, but fast aggressive symptomatic therapy is necessary.  mineral oil to help the intestinal tract.  Activated charcoal by mouth may be helpful if given early on. Calcium and magnesium supplementation long term is almost always needed.  Other therapies include fluids, pain meds, and diuretics. 
A very careful eye on normal blood levels, and electrolyte concentrations are some of the things they try to do to help bring an animal through.  If there are no complications they can usually survive a round of it. supportive therapy is extremely important.  The best way to treat it is to prevent it from happening at all. 
Hope this explains it for you.

***************************************************************************************

Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:21:28 -0000
From: "Sherry Williams" <jubaltwo@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: coccidiosis

I've lost kids in the past to cocci without them having a single symptom.  Fine and dandy, fat and sassy, running and playing....and dead 12 hours later....It was quite a shock as I'd just treated them for cocci only 3 weeks earlier...I learned a hard lesson that year.

Personally, I use DiMethox 40% injectable given orally.  I like that it is so much more effective than Corid (there's a big ol' explanation as to why but I'm not going into it here) and that I only have to give a small dose of cc's of DiMethox as opposed to ounces of Corid (lessens the chance of getting fluid into the lungs).  The dosage of DiMethox I use is 1cc per 10 pounds the first day and 1/2cc per 10 pounds for days 2, 3, 4, and 5.  If you choose to use Corid, give all the goats a shot of B Complex the last day of (or the day after) the treatment is 
finished. 

The goats can have a cocci overload without going into all the classic symptoms you read about.  Sometimes the only sign is a scruffy kid that doesn't seem to gain weight or doesn't grow as well as the others.  
Pale eyelids will keep you worming one but if that doesn't help, it could be cocci.  It's sneaky stuff sometimes.

Sherry Williams
************************************************************************************

From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: Listeriosis

Listeriosis is always accompanied by high fever. If the doe isn't febrile, then I would suspect polio. 
What works best for me it to give a one time oral dose of 10cc Penicillin (to topically kill bad bacteria in the gut), 10cc SQ of  Penicillin, and Thiamin 1 gram. I usually give 500mg IM, and 500mg SQ to extend the absorption. Usually only one dose of Penicillin is necessary for Polio, and then follow with Calf Pac on day two. I prefer to give the goat 100cc Revive orally, mixed 50:50 with water. If the goat can't swallow, I drench or tube it. I do not like to give SQ fluids, as severe infection can occur if sterile technique is not followed. Calf Pac will restart the digestive organisms, and start the recovery process. Thiamin must be given every day until recovery is complete.
Thiamin is the neurological vitamin, and the nervous system does not function without it. The thiamin can be given orally once the gut is restarted. Coni
 
Coni Ross
********************************************************************************

 I need to give a few of my pet goats (Nubian, Nubian/Boer crosses, & Boer) some antibiotics based on weight. I have only been able to find "weight-measurement" charts for dairy & pygmy goats. I am trying to find out if there is a measurement formula specific to "meat" goats. 

Hi Sandra, best formula I know of for estimating the weight of goats I got from D.G.Pugh, Sheep and 
Goat Medicine, page 43.  Measure the animal around the heart girth (just behind the front legs), then measure the animal along the side from the point of the shoulder (the bone just above and in front of the front legs) to the pin bone (bony point next to the tail).  

Multiply the figures (in inches) as follows:  heart girth x heart girth x length x 300.  This will give you the weight of the animal in pounds.  For those who work in kilograms, multiply the pounds by 0.4536 to convert the weight to kilograms.  

I have not yet been able to check this formula by actually weighing an animal but I have compared the results I get to the various 'weight-measurement' charts and I think the charts are less accurate than this formula.  I do know from experience that the charts are inaccurate unless you have exactly the type of goat they used.
--
Glenda Plog
Lowood, Queensland, Australia.
****************************************************************************************

From: "rsfboers" <rsfboers@netdot.com>
Subject: Re: best way to cycle does

I personally prefer using cidrs.....they just aren't readily available everywhere. You insert the cidr.... then pull it  in 13 to 19 days....the does should be in heat within 24 to 30 hours after the cidrs are pulled.
Outside the main breeding season I give 1cc of PG600 IM at the time I pull the cidrs.....I pull half one day and half the next.  This has the does coming in a little staggered...makes it easier on the buck.  If giving a shot I prefer to use Estrumate over Lutalyse....it seems to work better and more consistently. I don't think either works very well if the doe isn't cycling already. Both drugs are vet products....cidrs are usually available through people doing embryo transplant work and run from $4 to $6 each.

Peggy Taylor
Rocky Sprngs Farm
****************************************************************************************

From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: Floppy kid

Floppy kid is bacterial. I have cultured it, and have an experimental vaccine.  I can't tell  much about the cause yet, but hope to have a vaccine available in the next few years.  The experimental vaccine works very well.

Floppy is easy to treat: 2cc long acting penicillin, and 500mg thiamin mixed in the same syringe given orally once a day for 3 days. 

Other than the vaccine, there is no prophylactic treatment, and no common denominator. One of a set of twins may have it, and not the other.  Bottle kids were at first thought to be over fed, but actually the peristalsis stops, because the nervous system can't get the signals to the voluntary or autonomic nervous system. The food (milk) just does not move down the digestive tract, and the belly stays full. If not treated, kids die.  Although it can happen any time of the year, spring is the most common time.  Cool damp mornings followed by a hot day seem the most common conditions for floppy: March-May being the most prevalent time to see floppy.

I do not use an antacid if the kids are caught early: That is when just wobbling. If I find the kid comatose, I give 10cc Pepto Bismol, and treat for floppy. I put the kid in shade if it is hot, and in the sun if it is cool. I do not remove kids from the doe. That doe will stand over her kid, and 'talk to" mother, and stimulate the kid, and it is my opinion that they recover faster. I have seen does with strutted udders standing over a floppy kid, licking, talking, and generally trying to persuade the kid to nurse.  The kid will nurse when it is able if that doe is standing over it. I do occasionally give a 3-5cc dose of 50% dextrose orally to floppy kids when they are down.

See the archives for an original post about floppy. Coni
*************************************************************************************
 
Message: 20        
   Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:09:20 -0500
   From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: Floppy kid

Actually, the key is to kill the bacteria in the digestive tract with Penicillin, and replace thiamin. I had 650 floppys in 3 weeks, and I assure you the oral treatment of 2cc Penicillin and 500mg thiamin works very well,
and within 6 hours most kids stand and nurse.  I started off with giving Penicillin and thiamin SQ, then discovered it works just as fast if given orally. I did not give Ringers lactate SQ to any kid, and only 2 of the 650 died. Those two were out in the hot sun when I found them, and it was hyperthermia that killed them. They need sugar to the brain, and thiamin. 

Floppy does not usually occur after 3 weeks of age, but can occur as early as a few hours after birth. It occurs spontaneously all over the world, and as I said before, there is no known common denominator.

I give Covexin 8, and my does have Rumensin in the diet. None of those stop floppy from occurring. 
Coni
****************************************************************************************

Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 06:42:09 -0600
   From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: abortion/Tertracycline

I would give each doe 4cc SQ of Biomycin per 100lbs on day one, then put Terramycin soluble powder in the water. It comes in different strengths, depending on the manufacturer. Clean the trough out each morning, and
add fresh drug each morning, fill the trough, and turn off the water until all of it is consumed. I would  mix it so that a minimum of 500mg/day/doe. So for example: a package with 10 grams is enough for  20 goats for one day. Take the number of grams listed on the front of the package, and divide it by two, and you will have the number of goats it will treat. 1 gram is 1,000 mg, so if you need 500mg/goat, then one gram will treat 2 goats. It will also treat Leptospirosis, which causes abortion also. 

There is a Chlamydia  vaccine, but it is not available at this time. If you can get some of the vaccine, I would  vaccinate the goats before you breed them next time .  Vaccinate, booster, then put the buck in. Be sure to vaccinate your bucks also. 
 
Coni Ross

-------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: complete feed vs corn

I use a good balanced feed for my fullbloods, and young goats.  I supplement with corn. If you have goats on limited area, then the complete feed is better. I feed corn as a supplement to help keep range goats warm, when the weather is bad. Coni
 
Coni Ross

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Message: 11        
   Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 05:18:48 -0600
   From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: to get cold kids to nurse/mothering

I tie the doe to the side of a panel, so that she has to cooperate.  Then I get each kid, and on my knees, back the kid's rear up to my knees, bend it's knees, and open it's mouth with my left forefinger, and put the nipple in it's mouth, then milk the doe's milk into it 's mouth.  It would help to 'tickle' it's tail, as this stimulates the suck reflex.
Even if the kid won't suck, you can milk enough into it's mouth to get some colostrum in there. Sometimes cold kids 'dummy', and just don't have the will to live. 3-5cc of 50% dextrose will usually get one going enough to wake up and try to nurse.  Be sure the orifice of the teat is open before you start all of this.  Any doe that walks away from her kids needs to be culled. Mothering is inherited. 
This year, I have had several cases of kid theft, and had to stall the actual mother with her kids to reestablish scent. I had an old doe in labor, who whipped the young doe off, stole her kids (already tagged, dry, nursed), then proceeded to have twins of her own. The young doe had already given up . I stalled them, made sure the kids nursed, and the doe decided by morning that they were hers.  I normally kid them in the pasture, where this would not happen, but the unseasonably cold weather made it imperative to put them in a 5 acre trap with a barn.  Normally it isn't this cold in December, we have had January, February type weather. Coni
 
Coni Ross 
CR Ranch
13285 Ranch Rd. 2325
Blanco, Texas 78606

------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 05:56:24 -0600
   From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: buck with loosened horns

Were the horns broken in the skull?  If so, they can be splinted.  I use dowels to do this: the1/4" diameter dowels need to be cut so that one piece is 4-6" wider than the horns at the base. The second one should be placed    6-8" higher, and should be  4-6 longer than the width of the horns at that height.  I use duct tape split length wise to make it narrow. Secure the dowel closest to the head first, to the strong horn, then position the weak horn correctly, and secure it with tape to the lowest dowel. Then proceed the same way with the longer dowel. Take care to position the horn exactly first. You may need to get some Ace Promazine to sedate the
goat some first. I use  the injectable, and give it orally. It works very fast to chill one out enough you can handle him. You need for him to be still. I would follow this with a one time dose of Penicillin if the skin is broken around the horn, and a tetanus or CDT booster. 
If the horns are broken above the skull, they will need to be cut off at the break: they will not heal. Get out a disbudding iron, and get it hot to cauterize and stop bleeding.
Make sure you have mineral out for the buck.  Buck's skulls are usually very tough, and I have never seen a buck break a horn in the skull, only doe  kids. I tried to call you last evening, and missed you. Coni
 
Coni Ross 
CR Ranch
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: goat crippled on front feet

It could also be Bluetongue: a viral infection spread by biting insects.  It is endemic in the US, and is most common in a wet year. Keep the feet trimmed as short as you can. You may think you are seeing blood, but it
is old hemorrhages in the  hoof caused by the virus.  The hooves become very long, hard, almost impossible to trim, and deformed looking in some cases. You just need to keep them off short, VERY short, and it will
help. Most cases are not founder in goats, but just Blue tongue. Goats don't even always have it in all four feet.  
I use a Smith sharpener to keep my hoof trimmers razor sharp. You can get it at Academy Sporting goods in Texas, but I would think most sporting goods store would carry them. It is a diamond sharpener with a coarse side, and a fine side. You will need the hoof trimmers sharp to do it. Coni
 
Coni Ross
-------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 05:58:41 -0600
   From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: Lisa's dead kid

The most frequent cause of death in kids less than  3 days old is Enterotoxemia type C. This sounds like what the kid died of to me.  What works for me: For a newborn: 3cc oral penicillin,  5cc Penicillin SQ,  5cc SQ of CD antitoxin, 15cc Pepto Bismol, Banamine per body weight: 1cc/100lbs. Repeat the Pepto, in 3 hours. Repeat SQ penicillin, and SQ CD antitoxin the next day.
 
Coni Ross
-------------------------------------------------------------

Coni Ross <crranch@texas.net> wrote:  To: <The_Boer_Goat@yahoogroups.com>
From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 06:02:22 -0600
Subject: [The_Boer_Goat] MIlk Fever, pregnancy toxemia, ketosis

          Milk fever is actually a calcium deficiency. It is usual in late pregnancy, and for a time after parturition (birth) in heavy milking animals. Symptoms of early hypo calcemia: Stiffness, hyper excitability,
  restlessness and feet shuffling in cattle. Goats will dig at the ground with forefeet, circle, and call out, Heart      rate, and respiratory rate is increased IF NO CALCIUM IS GIVEN: Calcium Gluconate is recommended,
  because blood sugar is also low. I give a goat 100cc oral to start, then add it to the revive at 200ml/liter.
  
Stage 2, the goat will not be able to stand, but can stay upright. 

They do not eat, or drink. At this point, smooth muscle paralysis may occur, and  defecation and urination stops. There is no uterine tone, and birth becomes impossible without intervention. Calcium may be given oral, or VERY SLOW IV PUSH. Oral is safest, because of cardiac arrhythmias.

  Stage 3:Coma. Animals in coma do not survive long.
   
  Pregnancy toxemia is caused by multiple factors. The number one factor is multiple pregnancy. The other factors can include obesity, under nutrition, stress from cold, or heat.  Put very simply: Energy needs are higher than consumption.
The female is unable to consume enough carbohydrates to keep the serum glucose high enough to maintain the pregnancy.  She metabolizes her own fat and muscle to create glucose to keep the pregnancy alive. First  to  note is body condition changing, so that the bones over the top of the back are palpable, and or visible. The animal looses appetite. She may be very heavy bred, and reluctant to stand or walk.  By products of fat metabolism are called ketones. Excessive ketones in the bloodstream,( as indicated by ketones in urine), cause keto acidosis, which makes the animal sleepy, and causes loss of appetite.  A vicious cycle develops.  There is also protein spilled in the urine.  Another complication is  toxins produced by the pregnancy as fetal waste, which must be excreted by the kidneys. The liver and kidneys do not have the ability to  secrete these toxins. Water intake, is very important to prevent this from occurring.  Immediate steps should be taken to prevent the progression of the disease. The first step is to increase sugar intake until the need is met, and fat is no longer metabolized. This will allow time for the kidneys to secrete the ketones in the blood, so that the animal becomes more awake. I give a 2-3 scoop dose of calf pac in the Revive, mixed 50:50 with water. If the bacteria is alive, then the goat will be more likely to eat. Acidosis kills gut bacteria, and this compound the vicious cycle. IF enough live bacteria are present, and the serum ketones can be lowered by providing enough sugar, then the animal will become more alert, and start eating. I recommend using a  sweet feed, corn, fed a handful at a time, until she can eat a pound, and alfalfa free choice.  I have held does with quintuplets to term alert, and doing well with this method.
  Pregnancy toxemia does not always accompany milk fever, and vice versa.  The doe may have pregnancy toxemia, but not spill ketones if maintained well, but still be toxic because of inability of kidneys and liver to
  secrete the toxins.  Often, in this type case, there is fetal death.  I know this is simple, but hope it explains the differences.
Coni
CR Ranch 
13285 Ranch Rd. 2325
Blanco, Texas 78606 
512-496-3197
www.crranch.org

********************************************************************
From: "Vivianna" <irishana@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Pregnant Doe with Swollen Feet; revive.

1 bottle 50 dextrose
20CC B complex
5CC B12
2CC 500MG-ML thiamin
Add if using for preg tox
1 bottle amino acid solution (not the concentrate)
2MG ascorbic acid.

Mix this half revive and half water.  
Keep in a dark relatively cool place and it will keep.

Vivianna

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 19:04:41 -0800
From: "Sandy Johnson" <Zillahgoatlady@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Bo Se

We are very deficient in selenium here, I just gave my does that are due in a few weeks all of their shots.  Some got 4 cc's of Bo-Se, and all of my babies get 1 cc at birth, have been doing that for about 18 years now.  This 
info came from my vet who is a wonderful goat vet.  I vaccinate my girls with CD/T, Super Poly Bac Somus (pneumonia vac), Bo-se (1 cc per 40 lb), and I give them Ivomec orally and will worm them again when they freshen.

Sandy J
Rafter CSJ Dairy Goats & 3 beautiful Dexter heifers
Zillah, WA
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 07:11:12 -0600
   From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: Pyometra in a doe?

The vet mis-diagnosed your doe, and aborted her.  I have never heard of a doe with Pyometra. That is a dog problem. Goats have endometritis from a dirty delivery or from a dead kid in the uterus.  Mummified kids are a problem occasionally when one fetus dies in early gestation, but the other fetus is still alive. Some types of
viral disease (Akabane/Arthrogyroposis) can cause mummified fetus to occur.  Even in humans, occasionally one twin will die in utero, and the other twin is delivered fine. 
 
Coni Ross 
CR Ranch
13285 Ranch Rd. 2325

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Grafting kids  My way

 But, there really are easier methods.  I know Karen Venglar has such luck with grafting kids.  She told me how she did it..........I've forgotten.  Hopefully she will come on the list and tell us.
I, myself have never had much luck grafting a kid.  I think its because I do not have the patience needed to accomplish this. :<)

  Judy and David Muska

  Judy what I have always done and I have had a 100% success rate at doing this is one of two ways depending on what has accrued.

  1) If the doe just kidded and she only had one.  I take the afterbirth and rub it all over the kid I want to graft. If you are there when she is kidding you can catch the clear fluid from the birth and smear that also on the graft kid.  Once she has kidded and I check to make sure that is the only kid she is having then  I take her kid to another kidding pen where I have the graft kid that I have already smeared with her afterbirth or fluid.  The doe will follow you crying for her kid to the new pen where she now has two kids to clean.  She is confused because you moved her and is only concerned about being with her kids now and will clean and talk to both as well let both nurse.

  2)  If the doe has kidded and you have no afterbirth to smear on the kid then I milk the doe about a half of a coke bottle and smear it on the graft kids face, body and rear as well as on her own kid.  The I move her kid to another kidding pen and she will then follow concerned about her kid and will except both because she smells the milk on both kids.

  This is how I have always done it and have always had them take them.  

  Karen Venglar

************************************************************************

From: EGGSTX@aol.com
Subject: Re: Chlamydia

A sheep/goat vet told us a few years ago to give the pregnant does a  5 ml shot of LA 200 or Tetradure and then come back three days later with  another shot.  You can also add tetracycline to the water for about five  days to go with the shots.  The non-pregnant does should probably be vaccinated prior to breeding.  This is what we were told a couple of years  ago when Texas was having a bad outbreak.
Good Luck!
Jackie

***********************************************************************

Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 06:24:38 -0600
   From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: teaser bucks

Lots of folks use a teaser buck to tell them when a doe is in heat, so that they can hand breed her, or AI her. Also, teasers are used in embryo programs to service recipient does. If the recip does are actually serviced, the rate of pregnancy increases, because the does are physiologically 'bred', even thought they are not inseminated. When you put that embryo in, she is already 'bred'.  I do not use a vasectomized buck, I use several big wethers. I give the wethers  testosterone once a week for 2 weeks, and they will service those recip does very well. When
it is over, they go back to being sweet wethers, so one does not have to deal with obnoxious bucks that still cause trouble. These are old show wethers that are as big as a Shetland pony. Coni
 
Coni Ross 
CR Ranch

*******************************************************************

From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: late deliverd dead kid

She has an infection. I would give at least 15cc SQ of Penicillin, and 10cc polyserm or Bovi Sera plus a weight appropriate dose of   Banamine.  I would give penicillin at least 3 days. Coni
 
Coni Ross 
CR Ranch

*********************************************************************
: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: Selenium toxicity/BoSe,MuSe

MuSe can be given to kids in severely deficient areas if it is given orally. I wouldn't give more than .2(two tenths) of it oral. BoSe is better for kids, and one cc( of the injectable) can be given oral in newborns. For kids with splayed legs, I usually give Thiamin 500mg oral, and the kid is up the next day.  The MLS tubs have lots of Selenium in them, and you all in the Selenium deficient areas may want to try that. Coni 

Coni Ross 
CR Ranch

*******************************************************************

From: "Henri and Carol DeLobbe" <delobbebonjoli@ctesc.net>
Subject: Re:  Strange Kid Born

I have had this experience, and went through quite a lot of research on it.  It is called "Anasarka".  Be prepared that if you do a web search there is a German rock band band by that name!  My vet checked Mary Smith's book about goat medicine, and from that gave me the news that it was a genetic problem--she has a paragraph about it that says 11 kids born to a single Angora sire had the condition, so it was assumed to be genetic.  However, in my herd, the 3 pregnancies affected were from 2 different (largely unrelated) sires and 3 unrelated does (this was several years ago).  I did further research--it turns out that it happens in humans, and other species--the most common denominator in the US  is opossums carrying a protozoan that can be passed to the pregnant does (something like Toxoplasmosis from cats).   The kids are called "water babies" and have large amounts of accumulated amniotic fluid retained and stored under the skin, making them look like water balloon versions of goat kids.  The swollen kids are so large that they have great difficulty being born, and therefore can cause the death of their unaffected siblings that are delivered after the affected kids--to my knowledge, no one knows why some kids out of a multiple pregancy are affected and others are not.  

My vet helped me with a plan after the 2nd kidding involving an Anasarka kid--the problem is that the kid has so much fluid exerting pressure on the lungs and internal organs that it cannot breath enough oxygen to survive.  He recommended giving Lasix injections to get the live kids (swollen ones) to shed fluid quickly--sorry, can't remember the dosage--check with your vet.  This worked wonders on the 3rd kidding--the affected kid, although it was swollen and a hard pull, peed volumes after the injection, and shrank to the size of a normally large kid within an hour or two.  The kid and its siblings developed normally, and all three does involved had normal pregnancies/kiddings with the same or related bucks afterwards.  I have to disagree with Dr. Smith on this one, and believe this birth defect is caused by an organism picked up by the pregnant doe. 

Carol DeLobbe 
Bon Joli Farm

*****************************************************************

Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 22:03:46 -0600
   From: <rsfboers@inu.net>
Subject: Re: Chlamydia

My understanding with chlymidia is that the doe has to become infected prior to getting pregnant...the infection does not become active until after the pregnancy takes place.....In other words a weanling or yearling doe picks up the organism from grazing contaminated ground, carries it until she becomes pregnant and then will either abort the first or second pregnancy after infection and is usually fine from thereon......works very similar to bangs in cattle whereby the cow aborts the first calf and usually has no trouble thereafter.....Infected does shed the organism in vaginal discharges for a few days prior to abortion and for something like 9 to10 days after
abortion. It is my understanding that you can't prevent does already infected from aborting even with treatment but treatment will keep uninfected does from picking up the organism. Chlamydia usually aborts in the last 2 to 3 weeks of pregnancy. Does can be vaccinated 60 days prior to breeding season. The tetracyclines are the drugs of choice for treatment.....Terramycin in the water can help with this. The diagnosis for chlamydia is made from the placenta material or aborted fetus....

The drouth stress on what little vegetation there is including a lack of Vitamin A in conjunction with the wild weather swings we have been having are causing some of these abortion problems. A friend who runs a large
commercial herd told me just recently that they were having some abortion problems.....They have their feed mixed so had the amount of Vit A doubled in the feed which seems to have solved that problem for them.

Peggy Taylor
Rocky Springs Farm
Huntington, Texas

*******************************************************************

Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 11:21:45 -0600
   From: "Anita Janes" <carpidiemgoats@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: please help doe in trouble

I also was told not to use Imodium on the goats.. and baytril is NEVER to be used on any animal
that stands even a remote chance of ending up in the food chain...If  you don't have anything else.. and can't or don't want to use chemicals... use ground cinnamon and make a ball out of it with a tiny bit of water... just about everyone has it in their cabinets...it will stop scours faster than even Scour Halt....
AJ

************************************************************************

 Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 11:29:12 -0600
   From: Jannette <rwood@brazosnet.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Banamine/ Sick kid, Connie Ross Please!!

Laura Giezen wrote:
Connie - I have another doeling that is sick.  She is just off feed and standing around.. not acting like a kid should be.  I gave her 3cc penn orally, 3 cc CD antitoxin orally, and baking soda and water.  No fever and no other symtoms to go on.  I lost a doeling 2 weeks ago acting the same way and was unable to save her.  Towards
the end, she was thrashing her head around and crying.  Can you suggest anything else... have a call into the vet and waiting to hear back.

Laura Giezen
Cherry Creek Boer Goats

--- In The_Boer_Goat@yahoogroups.com, "Coni Ross" <crranch@...> wrote:

Flunixamine Megulamine is Banamine. It is the same, regardless of brand.
You need to know why the kid died, not just treat pain. If it died in such pain, I would suspect Enterotoxemia.
Saving kids with Enterotoxemia: I give 10cc oral Penicillin (to kill bacteria topically in the gut) 5-7cc  Sq of Penicillin  depending on kid size. 5-7cc CD antitoxin SQ depending on body size of kid,  15-20cc
Pepto Bismol oral with the Penicillin. Banamine per body weight-1cc/100lbs. For young kids, I use an allergy or insulin syringe, it is 1/10th of a cc per 10lbs.  Pepto Bismol is antibacterial, anti-gas, antacid, so it works to
reduce pain, acidosis, and inhibits reproduction of the bacteria causing the problem. Penicillin is the drug of choice for Clostridial species bacteria, which includes the bacteria that cause Enterotoxemia. Coni
 
Coni Ross
CR Ranch
13285 Ranch Rd. 2325
Blanco, Texas 78606
512-496-3197

***************************************************************

Vicki <skidmarkme59_98@yahoo.com> wrote:
  I have some bottle babies that I have been taken care of and with this crazy weather we have had the last week or so I have a couple of babies with a rattle in the chest and coughing.. We have gone from the weather being 40 a couple of days to dropping to -10 now back up to 40.  So i know the weather is not help me out here.  They are about 6 to 8 weeks old.. need to know what kind of treatment to do for them..I am sure I have one on the way to pneumonia.  The good thing is they are all still eating and no fevers..YET..Please HELP..I have 8 of them  left here to fed.. Vicki

WWW.lazyravenranch.com

Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 07:36:13 -0800 (PST)
   From: Kathryn Davis <kdkarbon@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: Bottle Babies with Rattle in Chest

I just went through that cough with several of my bottle kids...
   
  I went to the vet and got the excenel and gave the ones coughing 5 days of that.  Dosage was 1 cc per 35#... broke it down and gave the ones weighing 8#  0.25 cc (point 25)of excenel for 5 days.  My bigger kid (around 50#) got  1 2/10 cc of excenel for 6 days.  I gave (please forgive me group) the shots IM as the babies move SO much. Used the small needle and syringe - 1cc with 10ths marked.
  He is still coughing after he takes a bottle, but there is no rattle. So with Mr. Glutton, I think he is probably still asperating a little milk at bottle time.  But his lungs are clear and he does not "rattle".
  
Kathryn D
   
*******************************************************************

Subject:[The_Boer_Goat] pneumonia
   
  Pasturella hemolytica, and Haemophilus Somnus can kill in as short a time as 5 hours. The goat does not act sick until it is so septic it is almost dead. Toxins produced by these two organisms kill the kidneys, and liver before the goat has any real symptoms at all. Pasturella multocida is the one that makes the goat just quit eating, and shrink.
When you see them standing with the head down or level, tail down or level, reluctant to walk or move, quit eating then suspect multocida.  They do not necessarily have fever, and they do not always have a snotty
nose. If you watch them when you try to catch the goat it will use intercostal muscles (between ribs) to breathe, and have nasal flaring.  This is the one that causes irreparable damage to lung if not treated aggressively, and fast. I use at least 10cc Polyserum every 3 days, and Nuflor at 6ccSQ/100lbs SQ for a first dose, and 3cc/100 SQ every day after that for at least 4-5 days. If you do not treat every day, the likelihood of relapse is great, and lung damage or death usually occurs on the second round.
  
************************************************************************

Here is a email I saved from Coni Ross.  I saved about 5 kids about 2 years ago with this treatment. Hope this helps.

Floppy kid was first seen here about 10 years ago. Texas A&M said most kids come in with full bellies and are comatose or semi comatose. I think someone tube fed them with out treatment, and there is no peristalsis to carry the food on down the digestive tract. 

What is most commonly seen if the kid is awake: kid is very thin, and hungry, but can not nurse, even if it tries. The doe stands over the kid with her udder strutted. Gait of kid is cross legged, drunken, wobbly.  Sometimes they have a wet nose, and a respiratory rattle, but not always. Sometimes they have a bit of dark scours, but not a lot. They have a peculiar smell, at least I can smell it. 

I give the Penicillin orally to kill the causative bacteria in the gut with a topical treatment. The Thiamin is mixed with the penicillin, and is imperative to recovery. The neurological signal is electrical from brain to body part. The signal travels from cell membrane to cell membrane on thiamin and glucose.  The neurological system just gradually shuts down from lack of both thiamin and glucose since the kid is unable to nurse. That is why they go from wobbly to comatose.  

I treat comatose kids a little different.  I give each kid 5cc orally of 50% Dextrose, and the floppy treatment: 2cc long-acting penicillin, and 500mg thiamin orally. I wait about 3 hours, and reassess the kid.  Many times they are awake, but not strong enough to stand and nurse. I do not fill that
belly with milk, as peristalsis may not be working yet. I give them a little revive mixed 50:50 with water, usually just 20cc or so.  I do not give sodium bicarb at all.  If treated correctly, and caught soon, they recover well. 

The longest recovery I have seen was 4 days, and that was an angora kid that was comatose, and near death. Her dam stood over her the entire time, and when she was still unable to nurse on day 2, I milked her dam and tube fed her with 8 oz milk. I continued the treatment for 4 days before she stood and nursed on her own.  Floppy kid is floppy kid. I have even seen it in some calves.  Coni
 
Coni Ross 
CR Ranch

***********************************************************************

From: "Kay" <kdoby@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: doe in trouble update

Revive was made by Coni Ross and this is her recipe: She has several for different types of treatment, but the one for general use is:

  1 bottle 50% Dextrose, 20cc B complex, 5cc B12,  2cc 500mg/ml thiamin.
  If you have supplies on hand, this will make a little more than 500cc of Revive, and it will cost around $2.50. 
  If this is intended for pregnancy toxemia does, you need to add a bottle of Amino Acid solution (not the
  concentrate, it has too much potassium), and 2 grams of Ascorbic Acid. I use different recipes for different illnesses, but this is the basic one.
  50% Dextrose is very concentrated sugar, and is metabolized instantly by the goat.  Propylene glycol doesn't work well on goats.  For show animals, I mix it 50:50 with water, and then mix a Tbs. of Calf pac in it.  If you drench with this the goat feels better almost instantly, and will eat and drink.  I use it on newborns with floppy kid, or kids that are chilled.
These supplies can be bought almost anywhere. I buy The supplies by the case. If you do, the 50% dextrose will cost less than $2.00 a bottle.  Amino Acid solution is similar cost.  The B Complex can be bought anywhere, but B12, Thiamin and Ascorbic Acid are RX. Coni
  *******************************************************************

Subject: RE: Pregnant Does dying 2-3 weeks before kidding

Julie,

It sounds as though you may be having problems with pregnancy toxemia.

Pregnancy Toxemia (ketosis) is a potentially fatal condition that can affect pregnant does in their last five weeks of pregnancy, or shortly after freshening. Ketosis, if detected early, can be treated successfully, but mortality is high if not detected early.

Pregnancy toxemia is a nutritional deficiency - not that you're not feeding them well, but you could possibly be feeding them too well.  Goats that are kept too fat are just as apt as those not fed enough.  Ketosis usually
affects does within five weeks before their kidding date. Symptoms include dullness or depression, and not eating well. Symptoms will progress to general weakness, not walking, or walking oddly. These symptoms can rapidly progress, and cause the doe to sit down, and be unable to rise. Does reaching this stage may have reached an irreversible stage of the condition.

Ketosis can be treated successfully if detected early.  Urine tests, such as Keto-check, are generally accurate. However, it is best to suspect ketosis anytime a pregnant doe behaves oddly, or is sitting down more than usual.
Treatment usually consists of giving the doe propylene glycol, which is non-toxic. It is therefore acceptable to give the doe propylene glycol if symptoms indicate the condition, but the doe is unable to be tested. 

Prevention is the best way to avoid the condition.  This includes top dressing the feed of does in late pregnancy with sugar or molasses. Molasses can also be added to the goats' water.

Revive

1 bottle 50% Dextrose

20cc B complex

5cc B12

2cc 500 mg/ml Thiamin

(This will make 500 cc of Revive)

If this is intended for pregnancy toxemia does, add a bottle of Amino Acid solution (not the concentrate, it has too much potassium), and 2 grams of Ascorbic Acid. 

If you drench with this the goat feels better almost instantly, and will eat and drink. 

This is also good to use on newborns with floppy kid, or kids that are chilled.

 ***********************************************************************

From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: dose for epinephrine

Yes, use an insulin or allergy syringe, and give 1cc/100lbs. For a 10 lb kid, that would be .1cc, and for a 5 lb kid, that would be .05cc.
Insulin and allergy syringes are clearly marked, so half of a 10th would make it right for a   5 lb kid. Coni
 
Coni Ross 
CR Ranch
13285 Ranch Rd. 2325
Blanco, Texas 78606 
512-496-3197
************************************************************************

From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: Cydectin

Very good post Michelle! This is true, no withdrawal for slaughter or for milk if given orally, or poured on. We have not had access to injectable Cydectin, and most goat raisers don't inject wormer, unless there is a problem with Meningeal worm, or mange, then Ivomec or Dectomax are used. Coni
 
Coni Ross
*******************************************************************

Pepto Bismol is very good. I use it to treat Enterotoxemia, bloat, and grain overload. It is antacid, antibacterial (bismuth inhibits replication of the bad bacteria) and anti gas.   I use it for scours mixed with Biosol (man is it ugly, but it works well). The Salicilates help sooth  pain.  It does drug test if you are going to a terminal
show with a wether, so if that is the case, use plain Kaolin Pectin mixed with Calf Pac.

Any time you kill normal gut bacteria to stop scours, be sure to replace it with Calf Pac. Coni
 
Coni Ross
******************************************************************

Drugs are controlled in some states more than others. Batril CAN be prescribed by a vet, for a sick breeding animal if he feels it is the only thing that will work. He can not just prescribe it casually, but it is his decision. For some of the more resistant Pseudomonas type pneumonias, it is the only thing that will work. 
I would not state across the board, that Batril is now illegal. If you look at the data, it is no longer approved for chickens. Batril must be used with care, and on animals that will never be in the food chain.  Culling will not always help prevent infection of susceptible animals.  Animals may be susceptible because they are young, or because they are not nutritionally in good condition. 

Nutrition is playing a large role in abortions, and other type infections right now in the South West US, because of the drought.  Drought causes Vitamin A deficiency, which in turn causes immune insufficiency, abortion, inadequate lactation, fetal deformity, weak kids, lambs, calves that do not live very long, and infertility. The
primary source of Vitamin A is fresh green vegetation. In times of drought, supplements must be provided, which provide extra vitamin A.  Vitamin AD&E can be given first 2cc IM, then  2cc orally once a week for
2 weeks, and it will greatly improve animal condition.  Extra vitamin A may be added to feed, mineral, or water.
Imodium is a drug that slows peristalsis (movement of the gut to move food down the tract), and that is how it slows diarrhea. It is not recommended for ruminants because of the risk of Bloat and (paralytic ileus) bowel obstruction.
Pepto Bismol and Kao Pectate work mechanically to slow the contents of the gut, by thickening the contents.
The best treatment of scours is to treat the cause.  Treating the cause, hydration, and support are the best treatments for scours. A culture of the diarrhea should be done if ordinary treatment does not cause
improvement in 24 hours. Any treatment that is going to work will show some improvement in 6-8 hours, and significant improvement in 24hours, or you are using the wrong product.

Animals that do not respond to worming, and treatment of scours with usual means may have Johne's.  Coni 
 
Coni Ross 
CR Ranch
13285 Ranch Rd. 2325
Blanco, Texas 78606 
512-496-3197
www.crranch.org
**********************************************************************

Subject: Prolapse

McKinley
Sorry I did not stay on very long last night, and I get email on digest, so I saw your post this am.
If the uterus can be pushed back in, coat it with powdered sugar, and put it back. Usually, once that happens, it will happen every time.  It is a genetic weakness in most cases, but can be aggravated by pregnancy
toxemia, because the doe metabolizes her own   muscle and fat to maintain the pregnancy. These does often have problems kidding because they do not have the uterine strength to push out kids. 
 
Coni Ross 
CR Ranch
13285 Ranch Rd. 2325
Blanco, Texas 78606 
512-496-3197
www.crranch.org 
 ***********************************************************************

Subject: Re: Prolapse

Sugar will reduce swelling and help healing.  If you have a cut and put sugar on it, it will heal faster.  

Ann Stagner
Tornado Alley Nubians & Boers
Jacksonville, AR
*********************************************************************

Subject: Re: Prolapse

Sugar draws out moisture and helps shrink it. It also draws out moisture from bacteria and helps disinfect.
Think about a bowl of fruit with sugar on it - it will make juice because the sugar will draw the water from the fruit.
Gayla Roberts
Always Enough Ranch
Acampo, California
**********************************************************************

From: "Barbara" <jamesa@mrtc.com>
Subject: Re: Immodium use in goats

Hi,
I never use Immodium in goats it can cause the peristaltic action of the gut to slow or stop leading to death.
Barbara Howard
jamesa@mrtc.com 
www.geocities.com/goatlady43
Capri-Medic with goat 911
Call anytime 606-522-3388
I am not a Vet
This is the way I treat my goats what works for me
**********************************************************************

Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 06:02:42 -0600
   From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: Batril

Oh come on! Who said that Batril was for every day use? NO one! But it is a good drug to save a valuable animal in an emergency when nothing else works. Even in humans, there are drugs that are saved for
emergencies, because they are dangerous, and can kill the kidneys and liver if used in too high a dose, or for a prolonged period. That does not mean we do not use those drugs when it is necessary, the drugs are
just used with caution.
If those people  were loosing kids to pneumonia, why didn't they vaccinate for pneumonia? Vaccination is much more effective, than treating for pneumonia. Also, goats that have pneumonia often do not grow out well, because of damage to the lungs by the infection. So saying that the drug stunted the kids, sounds to me like speculation, or assumption. There are so many factors involved with how kids grow, that the assumption that it was the antibiotic is ludicrous. I did not see any information about this drug that indicated skeletal problems. There are environmental problems that can cause skeletal problem, including rickets, toxic plants, viral infections. 
I do agree that some of the drugs prescribed for ADHD do cause stunting of human children. We have discussed that on this list before.  Those drugs like Ritalin are speed, and suppress appetite. Children that do not eat well do not grow well.  That does not have anything  to do with Batril. 
Again: if you have a very expensive animal, you do not want to loose it, Batril is a last ditch drug, and it does work. Coni
 
Coni Ross 
CR Ranch
13285 Ranch Rd. 2325
Blanco, Texas 78606 
512-496-3197
www.crranch.org 
 *********************************************************************

From: "Miskin Meadows" <emerald@hawk.igs.net>
Subject: Baby with swollen feet/legs.

Hi Everyone,

I have a baby here born 3 days ago today and she has swollen feet/legs.
I will start at the beginning. Baby born through the night, when we got to her her ear and both feet were frozen. Brought her in the house gave her colostrum to start and some coffee to get her up and more alert. Soaked her
in a nice warm bath for about an hour always keeping the temp warm enough for a slow thawing of the legs. Legs thawed, fed baby a little colostrun all day long , no fevers, happy baby. Two days of swollen legs and baby is still happy, eating well and trying to walk around but you can see it is difficult, then today one of the feet sprung a leak, just at the top of the hoof where it splits.
Wound is oozing Clear fluid but tinged with blood, bad smelling, but constantly leaking all day slowly.

Tonight I notice it is still leaking but the swelling has gone down in the leg and the foot is getting thinner again slowly. Other foot is still huge and tight. I want to open the foot a little to help relieve the pressure and
allow this foot to heal as well but am afraid to try this without opinions of others who have been there and had to do that.

Am giving baby Traumeel ( herbal anti-inflammatory and pain killer) 3 times a day. I have some herbal anti-biotic (Vibactra Plus from Amber technologies) and will start her on these tonight.

Can anyone offer some advice on how to treat this any differently.  We are Organic and do not wish to give meds unless we see the baby is in definite pain. We have some Propen LA if that becomes necessary as well but try not to give that as well until we must for babies health.

Regards,
Bev & John
Miskin Meadows Farm
http://www.hawk.igs.net/~emerald/index.html
Owner VankleekHill_Freecycle
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VankleekHill_Freecycle

************************************************************************

From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: lamb with frostbite

I would give that lamb  3cc Polyserum, 2cc CD antitoxin, and 3-5cc SQ Penicillin. The edema is  from tissue death from the frost bite. The fluid can be drained with a small incision at the hoof, or with a 16
gauge needle. I would clean the area with 7% Iodine, and leave it on, then drain the fluid with gentle pressure. Healing will take place faster if the fluid can drain. Keep the area clean, and  repeat the Polyserum, and CD antitoxin every  2 weeks, and penicillin as necessary to prevent infection. The greatest risk is Tetanus, and Penicillin is the drug of  choice for that. 

Coni Ross 
CR Ranch
13285 Ranch Rd. 2325
Blanco, Texas 78606 
512-496-3197
www.crranch.org

********************************************************************
From: "luckygoat3" <luckygoat@gmail.com>
Subject: reynoldsburg ohio results

As most of you know i took a dead kid down to the ODA, the results were rather interesting and very helpful.  It's nothing infectious or contagious.  Actually it was when i disbudded her i fried the brain, but it took about two weeks for the symptoms to show up.  There was abcesses on the brain and a bacterial infection, which is the cause of death.

Susie
***********************************************************************
From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: Revive ingredients

B12, thiamin, and injectable Ascorbic acid are vet Rx.  
I do not use Ascorbic acid in regular Revive, only in the one for pregnancy toxemia, because it is a free radical grabber.  Amino Acid solution is available in most catalogs, and Tractor Supply.  It is cheap if purchased by the case, and it will keep.  If you have the concentrate, you use only 50cc, as the concentrate has too much potassium. 
I do not use CPMK in does with Pregnancy toxemia because of the Potassium content. Coni
 
Coni Ross
***********************************************************************
From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: buck with leg mites

Common things happen commonly. I would treat him for mange with 2cc/100lbs of Ivomec injectable given orally. I treat the skin topically with Prolate dip 1oz/gal of water. SCRUB the affected area.  Often, only one treatment is necessary with the prolate, but the Ivomec needs to be given once a week until the skin is clear, or it will come back. It is contagious. 
 
Coni Ross 
CR Ranch
13285 Ranch Rd. 2325
Blanco, Texas 78606 
512-496-3197
www.crranch.org
***********************************************************************

Subject: Re: Revive ingredients

*Magic Recipe (PM)
*1 pint of corn oil
1 pint of molasses
2 pints of Karo syrup
I warm it just a bit.
Give 2-3 ounces 3-4 times a day.

*Revive *(AM)
1 bottle 50% Dextrose
20cc B complex
5cc B12
2cc 500mg/ml thiamin.
This will make a little more than 500cc of Revive, and it will cost around $2.50. This will get them eating and drinking.
For pregnancy toxemia does:
Add a bottle of Amino Acid solution (not the concentrate, it has too much potassium)
and 2 grams of Ascorbic Acid

I usually try and give CD&T vaccines before they kid by at least 3 weeks, and worm them the day they kid...
give the doe that just kids.a bucket of hot water with molasses in it….usually about 3 gal of water
to 1 to 3 cups of molasses..
***********************************************************************
The ascorbic acid that I found on-line is a powder.  When I called my vet to talk to her about it, she said it would work the same as the liquid.  Here is a great website that I found to help convert measurements  http://www.cafecreosote.com/Reference/equivalents.php3     Two grams of ascorbic acid is equal to 0.42 teaspoons.

Wendy
***********************************************************************
From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: Ascorbic acid/viamin C

If you buy the injectable, it is usually 4cc of the 500mg/ml vitamin C.  If you need to use over the counter product, you can use the crushed pills from the grocery store.  I prefer the injectable, as I like to give it IM to does with mastitis, it really helps healing.
James: Amino acid solution comes in a 500ml(cc) bottle. If it is the regular, use one bottle per 500ml bottle of 50% Dextrose, and add the vitamins. If it is the concentrate Amino Acid Solution, use only 50cc per 500ml bottle of 50% Dextrose. I do not add water to the Revive until I am ready to give it, and I mix it 50:50 with water.  I prefer to keep the undiluted product in a dark place, like the kitchen pantry.  If you need to warm it, you set it in a pan of hot water, DO NOT MICROWAVE.
Revive: for pregnancy toxemia
500ml 50% Dextrose
500 ml regular Amino Acid solution (50cc if it is the concentrate)
200ml Calcium Gluconate]
 20ml B complex
2 grams (1,000 mg) of Ascorbic Acid (vitamin C)
5 ml B12
5 ml 500mg/ml Thiamin
 
For regular use, omit the Amino Acid solution, calcium Gluconate, and Ascorbic acid. 
 
Coni Ross 
CR Ranch
13285 Ranch Rd. 2325
Blanco, Texas 78606
**********************************************************************

Subject: [The_Boer_Goat] Oxytocin

  I do not use Lutylase or Estrumate to induce labor. I would prefer to use Dexamethasone. 
  I do use Oxytocin when a doe is in labor, and not dilating.  I have had does with multiple pregnancy and in labor, but with no progress in dilation of the cervix.  In this case, many times, the labor just stops, or is not strong enough to open the cervix.  I will repeat: I STAY WITH THE DOE.  I give the Banamine first, and stimulate with Oxytocin until I can get the cervix open enough to go get the kids.

I have seen too many does go to the vet, who said that the doe was not in labor, and to wait, because there were no hard contractions.  I know when a doe is in labor, and yet the vet refused to do a C section, and told the owner that she was 'not ready''. Two days later: dead 3 kids, and dead doe. How many times this has happened, I can't tell you, I have seen too many does with pregnancy toxemia die like this, because the vet would not do a C section, because the doe was not recognized to be in labor, and did not seem critical.  So, do as you like.  I get the kids out myself, and save my own doe. 
   
  Coni Ross 
  CR Ranch
  13285 Ranch Rd. 2325
  Blanco, Texas 78606 
  512-496-3197
  From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: MLS tub

The label calls it ORWIG'S MLS No. 3 cattle cake.  It does come in the smaller, 125 lb goat tub, but I get the cattle tub, 200 lbs,  because the ingredients are great for goats, and it lasts my horde longer.  There is a toll free number on the label: 888-766-tubs.  I bet they can tell you where you can get them in your area. They do contain too much copper for sheep. Coni
 
Coni Ross
***********************************************************************

Subject: milk production

If the doe is not in good condition when her kids are born, she will give less milk. I don't know where you are, but right now in Texas and other south and south west states, we  have a severe drought going on.  Green vegetation is the primary source for vitamin A, and without it, does abort, do not give enough milk, breed but do not conceive.  I increased the Vitamin A to my big commercial herds, and they are doing much better. 
Worming the does will help, but addition of alfalfa and a small amount of whole corn will help make milk too.
Probiotics help by enabling the doe to make better use of what she eats, and that will help her to give more milk. Coni
 
Coni Ross 
CR Ranch
13285 Ranch Rd. 2325
Blanco, Texas 78606 
512-496-3197
***********************************************************************
From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: kid with fever, limp

I would suspect joint ill. Joint ill can occur soon after birth from infection arising in the umbilical cord, or later from a cut or scratch that you may not even see. 
Check the leg the goat is limping on: is it swollen at one or more joints? Check other joints, and is there swelling or tenderness?  If so, then it is likely joint ill.

Joint ill needs to be treated aggressively, or the animal will be permanently crippled, stunted, and die.. 
I have saved kids with joint ill by treating aggressively with very high doses of Nuflor (6ccSQ on day one, and 3ccSq/day for  7-10 days), Penicillin !0cc SQ on day one, Polyserum 7-10cc SQ every 4 days, and Banamine for it's antiendotoxin effects.  The issue here is to treat the disease, or loose the kid . Sometimes you loose them anyway, the pus gets into the pericardium of the heart, in the peritoneum, and in all the joints.

Coni Ross 
CR Ranch
13285 Ranch Rd. 2325
***********************************************************************

Subject: how to figure expected kidding date

I use a simple method.  If the doe was bred Oct. 27, add 5 mos., and subtract 5 days.  The earliest date would be March 22. Coni
 
Coni Ross
*************************************************************

  From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: Biosol

Biosol will kill coccidiosis.  It works very fast. Sulfa drugs are the first recommended treatment, but Biosol will work too, and faster.  Neomycin is used to sterilize the gut prior to surgery. It kills everything except Salmonella.
Depending on the dose you use of Sulfa drugs, you must usually treat for 5 days. Biomycin will often do the job in one treatment, but at least one treatment a day for  3 days is recommended.
I don't have coccidiosis, I have Rumensin in my feed, and for the commercial goats, I use the cattle Rumensin blocks. 
Biosol 3cc oral mixed with 10cc of Pepto Bismol is excellent for scours of any kind. 
 
Coni Ross 
CR Ranch
13285 Ranch Rd. 2325
************************************************************************

From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: drug measurements

1 drop=1/10th cc
1 ml =1cc
5cc=1 teaspoon
=1 tablespoon or 1/2 oz.
30cc=1 oz or 2 tablespoons
1 gram =1,000mg
Drug strength is  on the bottle it will tell you how many milligrams       (mgs) are in 1 ml (1cc). So for instance you have Thiamin 500mg/ml and
you want to give   750 mg, you give 1 1/2cc.
 
I will forward a simple formula for figuring drug doses to Holly for her to post.

Coni Ross
*****************************************************************
From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: doe in labor

When the 'bubble passes' you should have active, strong contractions within a few minutes. I would automatically suspect the kid is not in correct position to be born. I would glove up, and go check out the
situation. 

Coni Ross 
CR Ranch
13285 Ranch Rd. 2325
***************************************************************
From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: pregnant doe limping

When a heavy bred doe limps, or walks like she is on egg shells, she likely has a calcium deficiency. I would add 20cc Calcium Gluconate to her Revive . I mix  it for pregnant does different than for non pregnant
animals. 
Revive for Pregnant does: 
500 Ml bottle of 50% Dextrose
500ml bottle of amino acid solution (if the concentrate, use only 50cc) 
200ml calcium Gluconate
20 ml B complex
2 grams Ascorbic acid (vit. C)
5 ml B12 (3,000 mcg/ml)
5 ml 500mg/ml Thiamin
Store in a clean jar, in a dark cool place.
I usually give Revive according to the doe's requirements: A large doe in serious toxemia: limping with swollen feet, or stained tail, loosing weight on her top, listless, loss of appetite,  will need to be treated individually. Does that are sleepy, or won't stand are at risk of dying.  I give the serious doe more Revive: 200cc mixed with 200cc water every 2-3 hours until she is more awake. I usually reduce the amount of Revive when the doe is more alert, and or starts eating. I add Calf Pac 2-3 scoops/day in the morning revive, and offer sweet feed, with an extra handful of corn, and free choice alfalfa. 
I give the doe 8-10 oz of Magic at bedtime to hold her the night.  A smaller doe will not need as much. 
Coni
*******************************************************************

From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: Electrolytes/ Revive

I do not recommend giving extra electrolytes to a doe with pregnancy toxemia. The Amino acid solution has electrolytes in it, and more potassium is not needed. Does with pregnancy toxemia can get too much potassium, and there is an adequate amount in molasses to make sure the electrolytes are correct. They just don't need extra.  If you think they need more fluids, add more water  to the revive. Coni
 
Coni Ross
********************************************************************

From: texann98BG@wmconnect.com
Subject: Re: Digest Number 5616

Bev,

Have you checked for chlamydia?  It will cause does to abort or have kids early, which means a low birth weight, and most will not survive.  You can give them a shot for it (available under a sheep label).  It sounds like that more than some problem with the buck.  

I know last year in Texas there was a big problem with it.  

Ann Giardini
Gateridge Farms
*********************************************************************
From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: late term abortions/weak kids

Most of the time, this is Chlamydia, or Leptospirosis. Toxoplasmosis can
cause it, but is  less likely.
Send placenta and dead kid to the vet for culture and sensitivity.  I would start the does on  4cc Biomycin/100lbs SQ on day one, and continue on days 2-10 with Terramycin soluble powder in the water  at
500-750 mg/head/day.  This will treat Chlamydia and Leptospirosis, and will not hurt them. Pregnancies that are alive can be saved. The ones that are dead will go ahead and abort, but  you can save the live ones. 
Q fever, Arthrogyroposis, and  Akabane (Akabane and Arthrogyroposis are the same) are  viral origin, and will not show up if the vet does not do a viral check. These are usually spread by gnats that sting/bite the goat. You would likely see some deformed kids, or mummified kids.
Be sure to allow at least one gallon of water per doe, and mix it in a tub that will hold enough for all the goats to drink. Example: you have a  20 gallon tub for 20 does. Mix fresh solution each day, and turn off
the water. Do not add more water until that is consumed. Make sure there is  no other source of water.
Toxoplasmosis can be prevented if you have Rumensin in the feed, mineral, or the blocks out. Toxoplasma Gondii is a protozoa, similar to coccidiosis, and is killed in the digestive tract by Rumensin before it
can invade the lining of the  digestive tract, and become a problem.
 
Coni Ross
************************************************************************

From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: ascorbic acid

I use the injectable Ascorbic acid in the Revive, but the  dissolved pills can be used. I like the injectable because it can be used to help treat mastitis. I get mine from the vet. 
 
Coni Ross
*********************************************************************

From: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: how to drench goats

First, get a drench gun A turkey baster would be a last resort for me.  Most of the livestock supply companies sell a simple cheap drench gun.

Put the nozzle of the drench gun at the back of the mouth, by the back teeth, on the outside of the teeth, next to the cheek.  If you do this, the goat  has to swallow, and the liquid is in back of her tongue so she can't spit it out. It will not choke her if you do it this way either.
Hold her head up, not level or down.  Let gravity help you.
Tie her head if you must, but she needs the drench or she will die.   
 
Coni Ross 
CR Ranch
**********************************************************************

Re: Kids dying quickly with green scours. 
Posted by: "Tim Pierce" timpierce53@yahoo.com   timpierce53 
Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:27 am (PST) 
KIDS WITH SCOURS LONGER THAN 24 hours is a ICU type situation.

These kids that are falling out with green scours is a Clostridial that is not covered by CD +T . This is a type B clostridial. We have had it and had it necropsied. 

Treatment of 25 to 30 lb kid Daily for 5 days. Do not stop just because they are better.
Banamine = 0.5 (tenths)
Baytril = 0.4 (tenths)
Biosol = 5cc Daily. 
Lactated ringers to rehydrate them. A six week old kid (30 lbs) needs a whole bag of lactated ringers. Even if the skin test says they are not dehydrated. 

Change your vaccinations from CD+T To Covexin 8.
tim

Tim & Debra Pierce 
England Creek Ranch 
Jacksonville, Texas 75766 

The next 3 pages contain the form I use to keep track of each of my goats.  The first page is the same for either sex, but the second, or back page, is different.  I use a 3 hole punch and put them in a notebook.  Mona

From: "Karin Christensen" <livestalk@imagecyte.com>
Subject: Re: How to go in doe??

There are probably lots of web pages but here is what I do.

First I cut down my finger nails as short as possible.  Then I scrub my hands with antibacterial dishwashing soap using a brush on my finger nails.  I do this because I do not use gloves.  I can't feel as well and if they are short they can come off and get lost in the goat.

Then I fill a small bowl with warm, soapy water, carry it in my right hand, which is going to go in the doe out to the barn.  I use my left hand for opening gates and for holding on to the doe's collar.  I dip my right hand in the soapy water and with just two fingers carefully feel a little bit in.  If the cervix feels dilated then I reach in with more fingers and gently be sure that things are open.  If there is a kid close to the birth canal it's easy to feel.  You should be able to feel two feet and a nose if it's positioned correctly.  If that's what I feel, then I stop
and wait a bit.  Sometimes, just doing that will inspire her to push.  It's easier to feel a kid if mom is laying down, but sometimes they won't do that until you've got your whole hand in there.

The one I hate is to feel just a boney large thing and a  tail.  This is a breech birth with the back legs forward and the one that seems to cause me the most problem.  Then you need to reach in, find each little hoof, cup it in your hand and bring it out.  You have to be very careful when you do this so you don't puncture the uterus.   Once I have both back feet out, I let mom rest for a minute, then slowly pull with her contractions.

Sideways involves pushing the kid around until you can find the head.  I've had heads pop out with no feet.  You don't want to pull on the head, but I have successfully reached behind the head, found the shoulder blades and pulled from there especially if it's a second or third kid and there is more room.

The hard part is figuring out what you are feeling.  Even though I've done this more often than I like to think about I always get a little panicky.  I stop and say to myself that I can't do this.  Then I tell myself that I have to do this.  What has worked for me is to close my eyes and rest my head on the doe and just concentrate.  It's amazing what you can accomplish.
Karin Christensen

******************************************************************************************

: "Coni Ross" <crranch@texas.net>
Subject: kids with belly, not growing

First, I would worm them. Be sure to use enough wormer to do the job.
Second, I would calf pac them, and make sure you have a feed with Rumensin. Sometimes kids have sub-clinical coccidiosis, which will interfere with absorption and growth. Coccidiosis will damage the lining
of the gut, and will decrease feed efficiency. If the kids are young, and not getting enough milk, a cup per 50 lbs of feed can be added to the creep feed in the feeder.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: pot bellied kids

If you  are bottling the kids, hold the bottle up high, so that the milk goes down the esophageal groove, That helps absorption. Second, make sure your milk replacer has Milk as the first ingredient. Measure milk
powder separate from water. If you are feeding kids creep feed, you can add 1 cup of nonfat dry milk (generic will do) from the grocery store. I also use Calf Pac in the feed, and in the milk. Pot belly means the kids
are not getting enough protein. I would put a Rumensin block in with them, unless you have Rumensin in the feed. The Sweetlix Meat Maker Mineral with Rumensin is good too. Coni
 
Coni Ross 
CR Ranch

I would give kids an ounce a day, and adults 6-8 oz depending on weight.
Be sure to calf pac, so that they don't scour from it. Coni

**************************************************************************************

Tim Pierce <Tim@ecrboers.com> wrote:
    Story 1st. 
     
    3 or 4 years ago we too lost 20+ kids in a matter of days. All were from 3 weeks to 2 months. After the 3rd kid dropped within 24 hours I took it to the vet. The next day I took 3 more by 5 o clock to the vet. 
     
    I spoke with Coni and she suggested 2cc cd antitoxin and 3 cc polyserum every 2 weeks for all of the remaining kids. This did slow the loss rate down but did not stop it. She also said to have the kids posted and find out exactly what was going on.
     
    Test were rushed thru aTm and the result came back as a super mutated form of E-coli. WHAT???  It was only sensitive to lethal doses of Nuflor. No other antibiotic would touch it. 
     
        The vet explained that what I had going on was the same thing the dairy cow people dealt with and had learned the hard way. The problem was caused from kidding out over the same ground/area year after year after year. The bacteria gets in the ground, on the walls of the pen, in the barn stalls and kidding jugs and no matter how diligent you are at cleaning you can never get it all. He suggested letting them kid in the pasture or build another barn. 
     
    We started treating with Nuflor and It slowed the death rate down. But we still lost 8 to 10 more over the next week.
     
    So I started making plans to build a new barn however that weekend a friend that is a vet in Kentucky was over looking at our herd and I explained all I had learned over the past 2 weeks. He related a similar problem the horse people had in Kentucky. He said if it were him he would get a truck load of Ag Lime and spread it over all of the barn.
     
    OK, now build a new barn or buy a truck load of Ag Lime. $30,000.00 or $500.00. Well I am no rocket scientist but I knew I was loosing in 3 to 4 days what a truck load of Ag Lime would cost so I bought 2 truck loads. I spread it over the entire barn 4 to 6 inches thick. (had to raise all of the gates.) Next morning after the Ag Lime was spread we found 1 dead kid. So maybe this does/does not work. Over the next 3 weeks we kidded out 100+ more kids and had no more losses. So this Ag Lime trick seemed to work.
     
    Now I have since build another barn. Fixin to add on to it. Most importantly I purchased a bunch of old gasoline storage tanks and cut them into 1/4"s Each tank makes 4 shelters 8 feet wide x 4 feet tall x 17 feet long. I use a 12 foot piece of pipe stuck on to my hay fork to move them around. I row up 4 or 5 shelters side by side and at pasture rotation time I move the shelters to the new pasture.  Now I don't have to clean barns anymore with a pitch fork and shovel. I just pick the shelter up and move it to its new location. Run a disc thru where it came from and it is now clean. 
     
    Moral to the story. 
    Not all problems with kids dying (or does for that matter) is because of disease or bad genetics or poor mothering but are caused by us humans trying to over manage them. 
     
    Yes we are having to treat them for the symptoms of something much greater but/and what we as good herdsman have to do is look for the root cause. Too many times our problems are created by ourselves. 
     
    Our management practices have to exist simultaneously with good husbandry practices as well as balance with nature. These goats/horses/pigs/llama's etc...  are animals, Not humans and are not to be treated and handled the same way. Even hospitals, modern research and antibiotics can't get rid of staph infections BUT NATURE CAN and does every day in the animal kingdom. Fresh air, sunshine and rain are the greatest disinfectants in nature. The more we work toward leaving them on their natural schedule and in their natural element the better off they are and the less work we have to put into them. 

  Other effects of using Ag Lime:
    1. Cleaner barn.
    2. Less flies
    3. Easier clean up.
    4. Better control of bacteria because the Ph level of lime is so great that bacteria CAN NOT grow in it. 
     
    Below are some excerpts from previous communiques on this subject for you to read. Take it for what it is.
    ---------------------------------------------------------
      Muddy yards and pens are what prompted me to try this the 1st time. It is the best thing I did. HOWEVER
        Be aware that when you 1st put it around every where that the 1st rain it will be like walking thru jello. Be sure to smooth out all foot prints thru it BEFORE it dries out. Once it dries out it will be almost as hard as concrete.
       We spread ours about 4 to 6 inches deep thru all of the pens, lots, loafing areas and in the barn. I had to raise all of my doors/gates to do this but turned out to be the best thing I ever did around the area. Once it has been rained on and dried out and it hardens you can then sweep it with a broom. Quickly clean up all manure laying around and reduce the fly population in the summer time.
    Good luck and buy in bulk.
     
      Ag Lime - in our parts is like sand. It is the stuff we have to put on our pastures to raise the pH level of the soil. (or nothing grows) Most all of the feed stores around here get it and spread it on folks pastures just like fertilizer. I purchase a 24 yard truck load at a time. It goes a long way. It is brought in from the local rock quarry's. Basically it is ground up limestone. It can be purchased in pellets but for the barn cleansing aspect I prefer to shovel it like sand. 
     
    Hydrated Lime - is the powdery stuff you purchase in 50# sacks. Used for white wash, gardening, light duty clean ups around the barn and many other things.

  Tim & Debra Pierce 
  England Creek Ranch 
  Jacksonville, Texas 75766 
  903-541-2851 Home 817-235-0484 Mobil 
  website = http://www.ecrboers.com/   E-mail = Tim@ecrboers.com or Debra@ecrboers.com 
  Fullbloods, Purebreds, Percentages and Wethers
Date: Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:48am(PDT) 
Subject: goats with swelled heads

This sounds like 'big head' caused by Klein grass. It causes hepatic (liver) damage, and swelling of the head and photo sensitivity causing skin lesions. Most commonly Klein grass is most toxic when there are seed heads, and
livestock consume the fresh growing vegetation and seed heads. This can also be caused by some mycotoxins (molds) Cocklebur, Alsike Clover, Blue green algae, aflatoxins, Lantana.

I would give them feed with Calf pac, Dry hay, and pen them until the cause can be determined. It is most likely plant derived. Antibiotic cream to mouth and facial lesions from photo sensitivity can help. Keep them out of
the sun until they are better. In some cases, permanent liver damage occurs.

Coni

**************************************************************
Subject: [The_Boer_Goat] urea

Urea will not hurt goats, but if used as a protein supplement in feed, it is not utilized. As fertilizer it is fine. Cattle can utilize urea to make protein, goats can't. Coni

************************************************************

I love burgers made with goat meat cooked on a fire. It tastes like sirloin if the goat was fed. 

I make stroganoff, carne guisada, tacos, and other moist recipes with goat. My children never knew if they were eating goat or beef unless they saw the bones. Ground goat makes the best taco meat in the world.

My favorite goat to kill is a big show wether, over 100lbs. The round steaks can be treats as per beef round steaks: pounded or tenderized and fried like chicken fried steak, made into peppered steak, or cut in strips, and cooked as per fajitas, then served with tortillas and' Pico de Gallo'. 

Fresh salsa:

Use the best tomatoes you can find.  In winter, I use Roma or the vine ripe type tomatoes. Cut up about 4 med size tomatoes, 1 large clove garlic, 2 slices of sweet onion, a small handful of fresh Cilantro, 1 hot jalapeno,
the juice half a large lime. Process to the texture you like best, correct the seasoning with salt after you finish. Don't taste it all away: Best with fresh crisp tortilla chips.

I used to make 2 gallons of this so my children would not eat it all before supper. They would eat it anyway, and I make it hot to slow that down. When they were toddlers, they could eat a 2 gallon bowl of this before I could finish making supper.

Coni
***********************************************************************

Date: Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:55pm(PDT) 
Subject: Re: treating mastitis

I am new to dairy goats. I have never had a mastitis problem with my boers. I bought this lamancha doe last year to supplement my boer babies. No, I did not get a culture done. A dairy goat breeder gave me the advice to switch to excenell.  Thanks so much for all the help. 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tri-Quest 
  To: The_Boer_Goat@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 9:23 PM
  Subject: [The_Boer_Goat] Re: treating mastitis

  REPLY:

  who told you to switch to Excenell ?  Naxcel and Excenel have NO withdrawal time when used in dairy aniamls --that is because the drug does NOT cross the mammary barrier --hence NO GOOD TO TREAT MASTITIS with it ---- i would stick with Pen G -- did you have the milk cultured BEFORE starting treatment?  most folks don't and then when the drug does not work they are out of luck trying to find out what drug will work.

  a good rule to follow --if you are not going to take a culture before you start treatment is to take a sterile sample and freeze it in case you need it if the drug you choose to use does not work

  better yet:  (take sample, start treatment with a wide spectrum Rx and take same to vet --the answer of what drug is BEST should be back in a couple of days---

  If she were mine and nothing seemed to be working i would stop treatment ( ask your vet for how long depending on the drugs you have been using) and draw a sample and find out what drug the BUG is sensitive to.

  YOU WROTE:

  Message 17
       From: "donna" donnamy@nts-online.net
       Date: Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:38pm(PDT)
  Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [The_Boer_Goat] help

  Thanks for replying. I have gone through treatment with penicillan. 
  Then was told to switch to excenell and TODAY mastitis treatment. Her udder is still hard on that side. Do I treat her again?

*************************************************************************************

I saw the post stating to double dose all wormers. DON'T DOUBLE DOSE THE LEVIMASOLE womers, Tramisole, etc. They can kill the goat in the normal dose. These wormers are not very effective any more. I have had does start slobbering and having convulsions from a regular dose of this stuff. If you want to use it, have the Atropine on hand, as it is a cholinesterase inhibitor, and atropine is antidotal. Coni
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would have on had my Atropine if I were using Levamisole products.This wormer is a Cholinesterase inhibitor, it inhibits the parasite, but the margin of safety is VERY close, because it also inhibits the animal.
I have almost killed goats that were wormed with a weight appropriate dose. If you don't have some Atropine on hand, don't give it.  On the other hand it can be used to boost the immune system of animals with chronic infection, or illness. It has been used as part of chemotherapy regimes in some cancers that do not respond.
Organophosphate poisoning I use3mg/100 lbs, a very small dose. The goat that is poisoned by Levamisole will slobber, stagger, and have respiratory distress.

Coni Ross
CR Ranch
13285 Ranch Rd. 2325
Blanco, Texas 78606
512-496-3197
www.crranch.org

*************************************************************************************

Re: [The_Boer_Goat] BoSe 

Bill copper and selenium are different
Look at
http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html

The losses to local goat breeders were imeasureable, one year in the early '90s a herd in Arizona lost all but three kids to copper deficiency (confirmed by Arizona U and Cornell), they were either stillborn or died within the first few weeks. The loss in mature animals was tremendous to herds experiencing the most severe problems. On the other hand, many of us did not have specific or classic copper deficiency symptoms, but rather a multitude of miscellaneous problems such as frequent staph lesions on the udder, nose, mouth, and chin (occasionally the entire body) and thin/rough/faded hair coats (odd "prickly" coat in the case of some Saanens), maybe nothing more than bald tail tips or light spots on the nose. Other herds had serious problems with increased cases of mastitis including gangrene mastitis (more than a dozen cases of gangrene mastitis in this area in a two year period, when it was virtually unheard of before – and since), ruptured uterus' and pre-pubic tendons (abdominal wall hernia) , hugh hematomas following injections or even a minor injury. What acts like spinal cord injuries in adults (osteoporosis), twisting or bending of the front legs and/or feet in kids and pregnant yearlings (osteoporosis - see photo #1), anemia .... just about anything your can imagine ..... we were all mystified (our veterinarians and professionals in academia included) that our seemingly well managed animals were so plagued; again, some herds experienced NO obvious problems. We now realize that many of these situations were/are a direct effect of a severely compromised immune system resulting from the hypocupric condition.
While other problems (bone disorders - ataxia - hair - cardiovascular) were a direct result of the low levels of copper. Young kids are most often and severely affected, with everything from the classic symptoms of ataxia
(swayback, mild to severe weakness, stumbling, wobbly, completely down in the hindquarters, a stiff shuffling gait - caused by impaired development of the central nervous system, severe ataxia is NOT reversable by treatment with copper) to light colored rings around the eyes, thin hair over the nose and/or around the eyes and/or ears, small size, general weakness or sore joints and general failure to thrive. The does are not able to get kids on the ground with adequate levels of copper to maintain them in good health. Often they are so extremely deficient that they suffer from osteoporosis (soft, porous bones that bend and fracture easily i.e neonatals with rib fractures), severe anemia, or other health problems, some are unable to survive at birth, some appear normal
at birth with symptoms showing soon after or weeks/months later depending on the level of the deficiency and the individual animal.

----- Original Message -----
From: William Barnhill
To: The_Boer_Goat@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 6:08 PM
Subject: [The_Boer_Goat] BoSe

IF our area is deficient in copper and DESPITE the fact there is some copper in the goat pellets we use, might it be a good idea to give all of our does a shot of BoSe?

In the ayem, I will be asking the Penn State lab to make sure they do a copper scan on the kids I took them. In the meantime, I wonder if the injection might be a good idea.

Bill
***************************************************************************************
IM injectionsSq injections
You can give an injection IV accidentally when giving IM or SQ injections, because the goat tends not to stand still. It is even possible to withdraw on the syringe, get nothing, and the goat moves while you are injecting the product, causing an IV injection anyway.  It can happen even when great care is taken. That is why sometimes we have 'reactions' to a shot, when it is not really a reaction, but accidentally given IV. Coni

Coni Ross
CR Ranch
13285 Ranch Rd. 2325
Blanco, Texas 78606
512-496-3197
www.crranch.org
*****************************************************************************************
Vaccination sites/needles
I always vaccinate SQ between the forelegs, so that a bump doesn't show much, and is dependent, so that it will drain. Tell me where a goat has enough muscle to give an IM injection that is likely to cause an abscess? I will not use the rear leg, because of the risk of damage to the nerve, and muscle there. I did give my first CL vaccinations there in 1986, and I had goats limp for a month, and some did abscess out even from IM injections, and you talk about a mess to treat in an angora.  I use 16 gauge needles for the pneumonia and Cl vaccines. It is faster to get in with a big needle. I have had fewer bumps from vaccinations I think, because I can get it in fast. Think about it: If the injection takes 10 seconds instead to 2-3 seconds, there is more chance of the
goat jumping, and causing the needle to gouge around in there.  If bleeding occurs in the vaccination site, then there will be an abscess.  I use 20 gauge needles for Covexin 8 in kids, and fullbloods, but for my commercial goats, I use 18s. I need to get it in fast, and efficiently.
Even so, there are very few abscess with the big needles. For Banamine, Oxytocin and Dexamethasone, I use 20 gauge needles. For Penicillin, I usually use 18 gauge. For Nuflor, I use a 16Ga. It is just faster, and more efficient. Coni

****************************************************************************************

injection sites 

Some of the vaccines are irritating to tissue even if there is no contamination of the injection site. A bump on a show goat is a no no. I don't want a goat in the ring with a scar, and someone says " oh look, that goat had a CL." It doesn't matter what really happened, they will think what they want. If the injection causes a bump, and the Covexin-8 is famous for that, then the bump will be there, or look like a CL.  If it is between the forelegs, for the most part, it doesn't show. You can lance it, or let it do it's thing by its' self. I usually don't' bother
with it, unless it is obvious. Vaccination abscesses usually drain by themselves. I have had to give penicillin to one goat for an abscess like that in 5 years. She was one who jumped around, so that the needle probably jabbed around and caused some bleeding in there, and provided a culture media for bacteria. I did lance that one, it was the size of a softball. It was full of yellow, liquid. Once lanced, and drained, I sprayed it with Wound Kote, and gave her penicillin. The penicillin was probably unnecessary, since the drained abscesses usually heal promptly
when drained. It is just my policy to give penicillin if I have to cut on something.

To restrain kids, I hold them between my legs, and pull the front end up, then put the head behind my left arm, and vaccinate them between the forelegs. I can't imagine the time it would take to try to throw one. I don't know if I would want to do that to some of the fullblood does, since they are more than double my weight. I usually back the big does up in the chute, butt in a corner, block the front and side with my leg, then bend over and stick them. Even then those wenches are not cooperative. Coni

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CDT vaccines, when to vaccinate

First, there have been many recent vaccine failures with Bar Vac, and Anchor. I switched to Covexin 8, because there has been no break over from it, and it covers 8 Clostridials, including Tetanus. Because of the carrier in the vaccine, there are sometimes bumps at the injection site.
I give a 3cc initial dose, and a 2cc booster 3 weeks later, and there are few bumps with this dose. I called my vet, and he did some research, and we decided on this dose. I have had no break over in the past two
years with this vaccine.
If the does are vaccinated 3-4 weeks prior to kidding, the kids will have colostrum immunity to the diseases until they are 12 weeks old.
The immune system of a goat does not develop enough to have permanent immunity until it is 12 weeks old. You can vaccinate sooner, but you still have to do it at 12 weeks, and 15 weeks, or the kids are not covered. For kids who's dams were not vaccinated, it is best to use CD antitoxin 2cc SQ every 2 weeks to protect them until they are old enough to vaccinate.
Goats can die of Enterotoxemia whether they are fed or not. I have seen kids born on pasture die of  enterotoxemia when the does were not fed at all. It is a bacterial infection, and you will loose the fattest,
fastest growing kids (always the best one of course). I have consulted on cases where the producer has never vaccinated, and didn't think it was necessary, and lost 80 kids in 48 hours, and had no idea why. The goats were on pasture with no supplement in spring when pasture quality was good. So do what you want, but I booster the does prior to kidding, then the kids at 12 weeks. Coni
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CAE 

JJ
Yes, you are correct. CAE is more dangerous, not treatable, or vaccinatable. At least with CL vaccination can be used to protect negative goats, and to help suppress, and treat CL in positive goats. I have seen it take as many as 4 shots to suppress it in some goats, but eventually you can. If at that point you can not suppress it in a
particular animal, valuable or not I think culling is in order. My opinion is: Look at the value of the goat genetically, and if it is a very good animal, then an attempt at suppression with vaccine is warranted: If it is just an average or below goat, then cull it. NO matter the value, if the animal is a poor doer, and does not respond to
vaccinating, then it's immune system is not good, and it needs to go. The vaccines are killed, and can not transmit disease to the goat. An abscess at the injection site is not evidence of Cl, but an injection abscess. If you give the vaccination between the forelegs, it is not as visible if a bump forms.  Bovi Sera has antibodies to Corynebacterium Pyogenes (CL) and can be given SQ to kids if does are not vaccinated to help protect them until they are old enough to vaccinate. Coni

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Re: [The_Boer_Goat] Pizzle rot/mucopurulent vaginitis 

The 2 Boer bucks that I've had with pizzle rot had "sloppy" sheaths, as opposed to a tight and tidy sheath. Does anyone else have an opinion as to whether this contributes to pizzle rot?
Terry

Subject: [The_Boer_Goat] Pizzle rot/mucopurulent vaginitis

In bucks it is pizzle rot, in does it is called mucopurulent vaginitis.  It is a bacterial infection, and in does causes a very swollen infected looking vulva, with pus sometimes dripping out. Bucks have a similar type infection
of the penis, which causes scar tissue very quickly. It can be transmitted to the buck by one doe, thus transmitted to the rest of the does bred by that buck. The infection can be caused by anything from Corynebacterium species bacteria, Usually Corynebacterium Renale, Mycoplasma, and others.
Bucks can also get this infection from riding one another, and the buck does not have to have this illness more than a couple of weeks to have a scabbed scarred looking prepuce. The infection is so aggressive, I have seen it look like your description in only 7-10 days from onset.

High protein intake can influence the onset in a buck, because of increased urea, but bacteria must be present to cause the problem.  I have seen Angoras have this because of wet urine soaked hair around the penis.

I would have the vet do culture and sensitivity to determine what will be most effective in the treatment. Meanwhile, I would clean the pizzle with Novalsan solution, scrub well, to assess any scar tissue. Meanwhile, I would give at least 15cc SQ of Penicillin, and !0cc Bovi Sera (has the antibodies to Corynebacterium) and then a Cephalosporin mastitis infusion into the penis and sheath. Lay the buck on his back or side, and massage the med up into the sheath as far as possible. Hopefully the vet will get the culture and sensitivity back quickly to be sure treatment is correct. If the does have it, treat them the same way. Be sure to culture before using the buck again.

I have seen this cured with plain penicillin, and Mastitis infusion. If it won't hurt an udder, it won't hurt the penis.

BE SURE TO CULTURE! Coni

Coni Ross
CR Ranch

*****************************************************************************************

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 21:15:45 -0600 "Circle I Ranch" wrote:

Hello all,
We have a doe kid with swollen knees, they are crusty and "smell sick".
She tends to walk stiff legged and when she stands won't put one down at all. She's being bottle fed and it appears that another bottle baby is starting to develop the same symptoms.

We applied a spray on antibiotic and wrapped it up. She seemed to walk better with the wrapping applied.

Any one have an idea as to what it might be and how we might stop it?

Thank you in advance,

Doug and Vicky Inich
Circle I Ranch
American Ingenuity Breeding American Genetics
----------------------------------------------------

Doug and Vicky,

You might consider treating them for Mycoplasma bacteria by giving them Biomycin (or LA 200) injections according to weight.

Mycoplasma bacteria can cause a lot of things.....swollen knees, pink eye, pneumonia, and abortion to name a few. This is probably one of the most under-diagnosed causes of illness in goats because it mimics so many other diseases. If the Biomycin clears it up then you may want to consider vaccinating them with Myco-Bac B vaccine.  I'm sure there are tests for it, but I'm not sure if they are easily or quickly run.

This particular bacteria caused pneumonia in about ten doelings and swollen knees in three little bucks I had. There were so many to treat that it ended up being more economical to sell them at auction and cut my losses.  I now vaccinate for it so I don't have a repeat of that fiasco.

Mona Enderli
Enderli Farms

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: anybody heard of mycoplasma? - Ray 

Thank you for the information. I don't think I have it in my herd yet, but it's in a lot of the feedlots around here and after talking with the local lab, there are 13 strains that cattle can get. Some of those will cross species and many of them are natrually occurring flora of the nasal passages of many species. Makes it hard to deal with. And the darn stuff doesn't have a cell wall, so all the antibiotics designed to work on a cell wall to destroy bacteria dont' work very well. So now, it my disease causing organism list I have, virus, bacteria, fungus, prion and mycoplasma. Wonder what I'll have to add next week?

Thanks again.

Sherry

--- In The_Boer_Goat@yahoogroups.com, "Ray/Jannette Wood"
rwood@w...> wrote:
 This is what Coni Ross posted in September of last year on this...

 The Mycoplasma that cattle get is not the same that goats get. I talked  to Texas Vet labs last year, and they have been trying to develop a  vaccine for goats that covers Mycoplasma. They could not even give Mycoplasma to goats from the cattle type.  So NO, the cattle vaccine will
 not work.  The hog vaccine might.  If you loose one of the goats, please have your vet send an entire lung to Texas Vet labs.  They want to develop a vaccine, and need the variant that goats get in order to do  this. Wouldn't it be nice to have a pneumonia vaccine that covers Mycoplasma too? I will get their phone number and to you tomorrow.  I will call them myself to pave the way for you. Since Pasturella was cultured with the pneumonia you have. I would give Polyserum, Nuflor, and continue with the Naxcel.  Mycoplasma is very
hard to cure. If you do not have good resulte, I would use Septra, or Sulfadimethox at the same time as you give the Nuflor each day. Coni

 Coni Ross

******************************************************************************************
Easy humane euthanasia
I have used this on a much loved horse. Get a plastic bag or cloth bag, like an old pillow case, and cut out a corner. Take duct tape, and a 10' length of water hose ( this is enough to keep it cool)or swimming pool
vacuum hose, connect to the corner of the bag, and then to the tail pipe of a truck, or car. Start the engine, and cover just the animal's nose with the bag. Carbon monoxide kills very quietly.  The animal does not panic since it can see, and breathe. Carbon monoxide is similar to oxygen, so it does not cause panic, fear, or distress, it just kills fast, quietly, and gently.  I hate it, but at times it needs doing, and if you can't use a fast humane bullet, then this is a reasonable alternative. Coni
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rough and peeling horns
This is usually a sign of stress. I would suspect worms too, not just coccidiosis. I don't know what you worm with, but I would worm him with a white wormer at a triple dose three days in a row, wait 7-10 days and then worm him with Cydectin to finish off the worm kill. Treat for anemia, and re start the rumen bacteria with Calf Pac. Old goats with rough, ridged horns are does who have spent a great deal of time wormy.
Coni

Coni Ross
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Nematodes for fly control
I get the nematodes at the natural gardener, a local organic garden place. Any organic gardening place should have them. You have to ask for them, since they are refrigerated. You must follow directions, the nematodes do not move around, so you have to spray them where you want them to be. It comes in a peat base, and had to be mixed with water, then put through a filter (filter comes with nematodes) so that it won't plug your sprayer. I have one sprayer for 'organics only'. Don't use one that has been used for insecticides, it will kill your nematodes. I really like this method, since it kills the larvae (maggots) before they can pupate. By now, as warm and moist as it has been, I would have had millions of flies. So far, I have a few, but certainly not a big
problem. Coni
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Pink Eye Spray
Cattle pink eye is caused by Moraxella Bovis. Goat pink eye is usually Chlamydia, or Mycoplasma.

The cattle vaccine for pink eye does not work in goats because it is the wrong organism.

Gentamycin spray for pink eye is available, but it has ALCOHOL in it.  I do not use alcohol in the eye.

My recipe works in 24-48 hours, and even a completely opaque eye is cured in 36 hour in 99% of cases.

Clean the face and eye of pus with paper towels and Listerine.  Spray the eye with the treatment.

Pink Eye spray:

10cc of 100mg/ml Gentamycin

10cc 2mg/ml Dexamethasone

10cc distilled water, or sterile water.

Take a small travel size hair spray bottle (clean of course) to your vet, and have him mix it for you.

Gentamycin is not approved for food animals except in the topical form. Eye treatment is considered topical.

If your vet does not want to make it, have him call my vet, and he will verify that it is very effective. David Behrends 830-833-4150.

Coni Ross
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pink eye spray 

Keep it in the refrigerator when it is not in use, and keep it out of the sun, or it looses efficacy. I am sorry I didn't post that earlier. I have a dark brown glass spray bottle I put it in.

Scrub the eye with what ever disinfectant you use.  I use Listerine, but have used Novalsan, Iodine, and Betadine, with a strong scouring of the skin around the eye if it is crusted. Spray generously. You can not get rid of infection if it keeps getting reinfected from the area around it when there is a crust.

Coni Ross
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Re: [The_Boer_Goat] Scours colors....?? 

WHOPPIE!!!! I can help someone!!!
This was posted a while back and I saved it for my own records...hope helps.
Kathy
6A Ranch

In kids:
Brown milkshake colored scours: Bacterial Enteritis
Green colored scours: "Ahh, I found the grass and started going at it today!"
Yellow scours: COCCIDOSIS!!!!
White scours: "Too much milk momma!"
Red streaks in any scours: GET TO VET IMMEDIATELY! The kid is shedding it's gut wall and is in critical condition.

This isn't going to be 100% accurate but is pretty darned close to what you see in kids. Smell is important too, (face it guys, very few things stink worse than coccidiosis!) but the above is what we've used for years and always seems to be right on the mark.
Remember that bacterial scours in a kid, if not stopped within 12 hours will almost certainly cause those pesky little coccidia to take advantage and multiply over-night thus going into coccidiosis.  I know I preach this every year to every one, but it has been so successful for us that I have to repeat it!

Watch the little tail hairs on all kids. At the very first sign of a wet tail hair, give the 12 pound or heavier kid a 30 pound dose (pill) of SMZTP. Usually that is all you will have to do. Coccidiosis prevention at work here
with the SMZTP as a healthy gut will be able to keep those coccidia from multiplying. Probiotics in the milk please and start those kids out on a creep feed and fresh free choice hay from the day they are born. Don't wait till weaning to introduce feed and hay.